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An Eastern Rite pope as a catalyst for Christian unity [townhall.com]

This was a good read...

If Cardinal (is it correct) Husar would be elected, I think he would make an excellent Holy Father.

Hi

I don't think that rite has a connection with Church unity. A strong identity is necessary for a healthy unity, and the Western Church's identity is facing a deep crisis nowadays.

I don't think that the person who wrote the article is really interested in Church unity, but in supporting a married priesthood for the Roman Church. I doubt that under the present condition of Roman Catholicism, married priests would do any good to it.

It would be healthy in my opinion, for the West, the arrival of a strong traditional-minded pope, who restores the Latin Liturgy, the architecture, the art and all what made the splendour of the Roman Church. A Pope who removes liberal minded bishops, applies 0 tolerance to crime and condemns global capitalism.

(to be continued... I hurt my finger with a cutter)

I hope it's not serious!!

I agree with what you have posted so far.

My prediction is: If the Roman church gets a strong tradition minded Pope, episcopate and curia the church will be strengthened....and lose a lot of people .

I hate to say this but I just get the feeling that a lot of Roman Catholics are barely hanging on.

Big changes will inspire many of them, and chase the rest out.

+T+
Michael

Which is why an Eastern-rite pope might be a good solution. The sense of tradition would likely be restored to the Roman rite, yet some old Eastern notions (decentralization, ordination of married men to the clergy) could be introduced, thereby satisfying some concerns of progressives, without actually conceding to them. And while such a move would inflame many of us Orthodox at least initially, I think it would ultimately be another rung climbed on that very tall ladder to reunion.

Since the issue of Latin liturgy was brought up, I have a question. I recently went to a Catholic Mass with a friend and wondered why your Tridentine Mass wasn't just translated into the vernacular instead of this overhauled and abbreviated liturgy taking its place? And why does the priest face the people? I was talking to my ROCOR priest some years ago about reunion and he made some interesting points:

1. On Vatican II: While it helped foster cordial relations between the Orthodox and Catholics, it also introduced reforms that render the Catholics even farther removed from the Orthodox, especially in liturgical practice.

2. The Orthodox have to take care of their own problems before tackling the issue of dialogue and intercommunion with other Churches.

It should be recalled that while the Second Vatican Council did make a suggestion for substantial overhaul of the Roman Rite, including the introduction of additional Anaphoræ (Eucharistic Prayers), it did not mandate a singular practice of the Roman Rite as had been the case the Council of Trent. The result is the possibility of greater local variation, such as is common in both Eastern Rite Catholicism as Orthodox Christianity.

Many things have been done in the name of the Second Vatican Council that the Council itself made no mention of. You are right to ask why does the priest face the people, I ask myself the same thing. After all in the original breviary for the Missa Normativa 1969 there are explicit instructions for the moments when the priest should face the people and when he should be oriented towards the east.

This is an interesting article on the Roman rite by Fr Joseph Fessio SJ:

http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/fessio_massv2_1_jan05.asp

Once again, the Novus Ordo of Paul VI (1969 I believe) is being confused with the Mass of Vatican II (1964 or so. I don't remember the exact publication date of that missal). They are not the same. Vatican II ended several years before the creation of the Novus Ordo. Unfortunately, many people no longer know the difference.

I think the breviary containing the current Missa Normativa of the Latin Church was indeed issued in 1969-though I could be wrong. The previous breviary containing what is now called the Tridentine Mass was issued in 1962.

Both breviaries expect the priest to be facing east. The 1969 breviary just tells the priest to turn to the people at certain points during the liturgy i.e. when the priest begins the Lord's prayer and salutes the people. Nobody told the priests not to face east, where it came from nobody seems to know.

Then again many things were done 'in the spirit of Vatican II' and nobody seems to know where they came from either.

There is a 1964/65 English missal that came from the Council. It is in English except for the Canon which is the Roman Canon in Latin. It allows facing the people. This is the mass of Vatican II and it was in use in this country until 1969. The 1965 missal does not contain the Novus Ordo calendar and preserves much of the liturgical calendar from Trent.

That indeed is the $50,000 question. The Eastern
Liturgies say the same things now in English, as
they did when they were celebrated in Slavonic,
Ukrainian, etc. Whereas when the Western Mass was
translated into the vernacular, virtually every
word of every prayer was changed and most of
what was distinctly Catholic doctrine was
removed. This in my opinion is one of the major
causes of the problems in the Western Church.

I think an Eastern Pope who would allow the
restoration of the Western Liturgy, and crack
down on the dissenting liberal Western bishops
while continuing to allow the Eastern Churches
to restore their Liturgy and traditions would
be a wonderful choice........

sorry but I'll have to add to your predicion...

he may as well take the name Pope "John F."
because some wacky T-crank nut job out there would have high indignation over the married clergy issue and take a pop-shot or 'pope-shot' at him (keep him away from Texas). In-fact I was talking to one of my crank-trad friends last Saturday and she brought up her conspiracy theory about Pope John Paul's papacy lasting sooo short.

I don't go for conspiracy theories. I simply follow my heart and pray (as we have been doing in chuch) for the Holy Spirit to lead the college of cardinals to select the Pope that will properly lead the Church by following God's Holy will.

toodles & God bless, sUSAn

Susan,

What are t-cranks and crank trads? Are these derogatory terms for Latin Catholics attached to the traditonal Tridentine Mass? This is certainly no way to refer to fellow Catholics. The idea that a Latin Catholic attached to tradition would assassinate a Pope is deeply offensive.

I am a Latin Catholic who attends the Tridentine Mass in the Latin Church. Some Sundays I attend the Byzantine DL instead. I believe the Latin Church should return to it's traditons, to include a more traditional Liturgy. This could be a Pauline Mass in Latin. I also believe that the Western Church should ordain married men as it is also a return to tradition. Perhaps your traditional friends aren't properly informed, a bit of education would go a lot further than name calling.

Bakhtiyar said:

I wholeheartedly agree with all but the decentralization. Decentralization would be good in regard to the Eastern Churches in communion with Rome, but shouldn't be the practice within the Latin Church. For any sense of tradition to be restored, Rome needs to lead the Latin Church in a strong manner. Otherwise the Latin bishops of the various countries will just do things their own way, as they have proven in the past. They have shown no attachement to tradition.

Someone who understands...

As for the liturgy I share Cardinal Ratzinger's aspirations for a 'reform of the reform'. I think the use of the vernacular is a help to the Church rather than a hinderance. Nonetheless, I believe it would be healthy for the Church to at least have the High Mass of every Roman Catholic Church said in Latin. Moreover, many other things Ratzinger speaks of in his excellent book 'Spirit of the Liturgy' such as the return of eastward facing faithful, a revivial of sacred art etc.etc. Need to be implemented (3 guesses on who Myles wants God to elect as Universalis Papae )

However, as the Cardinal himself has said this needs to be supported and indeed spring from a true faith nurtured by good, solid, Catechesis. Until the ground is turned up the sowing of seeds will be in vain.

Hey, sUSAn.

My wife's name is Susan too, so you have that going for you here. But I'm pretty ticked off about the fact that anti-tradism is like the "last acceptable prejudice" on the forum. I should go through and find all the comments, but in the last several months I have seen countless posts making diparaging comments about "Tridentines," "TradLats," etc. Invariably, we are portrayed as ignorant, angry, stupid people who are a cross to be around.

Maybe this is true in some people's experience, but not in mine. I have been attending the indult Mass since around 1994, and in my experience "Tridentines" are just like any other group of Christians--you're going to find some bad ones and a lot of fine ones.

LatinTrad