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Why isn't every Mass a High Mass?

Dear Friends,

If Husar should become Pope - that will be a "good news, bad news" situation for the UGCC.

The good news is that the UGCC will finally have a recognized Patriarch.

The bad news is that he will be a Patriarch of the West . . .



Dominus Vobiscum! And anyone who doesn't like Tridentines - "Stultus est!"

Alex (who just loves TradLats - after all, I coined the term! )

I'm sorry if I offended you by referring to your practices as "Tridentine," but I thought this was the accepted term.

While I don't necessarily agree with the emphasis on Latin in the liturgy (I don't disagree with it either), I do lament the gradual stripping away of tradition in your church.

On the other side of the coin, I've had Catholic friends (all of whom wholeheartedly embrace the modern innovations) who, upon seeing an Orthodox liturgy, comment rather derisively that it's "too long," sounds "Muslim," or looks like "devil worship." Where they have seen the last to draw such a comparison I'll never know.

When we go to church, we do so voluntarily to pay due reverence to God and participate in His Mysteries. We don't go because someone tells us we have to or because we want to get something out of it. I told my friend when I was at that Catholic Mass, "listen to what is being said in the Gospel reading, listen to the sermon, know why you're receiving Communion today. Don't just fidget around and wait for it all to be done with so you can get Communion and leave."

Going to church isn't something that you manage to fit into your day. It's something that you plan your day around. Which is probably the reason why I don't go to church very often.

Alex,

According to this logic we have always had a Patriarch... resident in Rome. Sadly, many feel that's the way it should always be . . .

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

Dear Andriju,

You are more than correct!

When I was active in the patriarchal movement (in the time when Fr. Dzulynski was your parish priest), this was often the retort I heard - our patriarch is the Pope!

But what was it that the Holy Hieroconfessor Josef used to say (and I'll get around to doing an akathist to him too!), "If this Pope doesn't recognize our Patriarchate, then the next might, and if not him, then the next, and if not him, then . . ."

Alex

(first time poster - but reader for several months)

I don't necessarily think the person's posting on "trad-cranks" is a slam on those who desire a return to traditionalsm.....

Rather it's the folks that stand up and preach that the missa normativa is "unpleasing to God" and some that take it a step forward to stating that everything that came out of Vatican II is a heresy, the Holy See is vacant, etc, - those are the "trad cranks" ...

Look at the FSSP vs the SSPX & CRMI folks. Good traditionalists vs schismatics and sedevacantists.

Hi, Bakhtiyar

Oh, I'm not at all offended by the use of the term "Tridentine." I was objecting to a certain stereotype of Tridentine Catholics that seems to have a certain amount of currency on the forum (but was not at all present in your post--it was another post on this thread that aroused my ire).

Often Tridentines are described as ignorant and vicious, on this thread they are described by a poster as willing to assasinate a Pope. It was to this comment that I objected, not to what your post was saying.

LatinTrad

Dear LatinTrad,

It seems to me that new Pope is very open to the Tridentine Rite, is he not?

Does he not have a tradition of speaking out in favour of liturgical traditionalism in the Latin Church?

Alex

Dr. Alex,

Yes!! I believe that Pope Benedict XVI, as a Cardinal, went to Fontgombault and celebrated the Pontifical Solemn High Mass.

I have high hopes for this pontificate.

Ltrad

Dear LT

Laudetur Iesus Christus!

I, for one, think that traditional Tridentines can look to a great deal of sympathy - and action - from this Pope on their views and concerns.

We shall see

Also, did you know that the Orthodox Kyivan Mohyla Academy in Ukraine used Latin as its "lingua franca?"

It used Latin even longer than many western European schools - and this allowed for a great influx of students from all over Europe who went there to study and who also went to other European schools for further studies from there.

Alex

Yes, His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI, might have a "liking" for the Tridentine Latin Mass.

He was a ranking member of "Ecclesiae Dei." For all we know, he might have prepared for Pope John Paul II the decree creating the Commission!

Amado

Benedict XVI loves organic development in the liturgy and has firmly supported the continuance of the Tridentine rite and he will probably try to ensure a greater indult for its use.

However, his attention liturgically will focus on the Latin Church's Missa Normativa. He was the one who called for the 'reform of the reform' and the discussion he initiated with his book 'Spirit of the Liturgy' is likely to profoundly affect the way the Missa Normativa is performed.

Oooh this is so great! My favourite modern theologian was chosen by God to be HOLY ECUMENICAL PONTIFF!!

AND, AND, AND MY PRIEST IS TAKING ME WORLD YOUTH DAY IN KOLN AND I MIGHT GET TO MEET HIM. FOR ME A MEMBER OF THE RATZINGER FANCLUB THIS IS AMAZING!!!!!!!

Congratulations, Myles!

I never saw +John Paul II+ of eternal memory in person, although my wife saw him when he visited Cali, Colombia. He visited my hometwon of Pittsburgh, but that was in 1969 and I was not yet six.

The irony is that along with most traditions, people fail to realize that liturgical traditons are constructed and have a history.

What many people see as a "return to [the Church's] traditions" is a particular moment in history, such as the counter-Reformation Council of Trent. While this is certainly older than many present traditions, it must be recalled that the Tridentine Mass was an innovation in its day. Until the Council of Trent there were dozens of Rites and Usages present in medieval Western Europe that were obliterated by the decrees of Trent. This period before Trent could just as easily be pointed to as the time from which we should draw traditions to which one would like to return.

Moreover, while the specific English translations of ICEL may be quibbled over, the fact remains the the additional Eucharistic Prayers added to the Roman Missal are drawn from a liturgical tradition much older than the Trent, some stretching as far back as at least the 3rd Century (e.g., ApTrad).

Therefore, to argue that one ought to return to tradition is not sufficient, because the liturgical reforms of the Second Vatican Council, through the resourcement, also returned to tradition, a tradition both much older and derived from a time more consonant with the former unity of the early Christian church. Implicit in every claim of "return to tradition" is an agrandizement of a particular "golden age" about which we ought to be suspicious. Revitalizing traditions is necessary and it is one of the beauties of our Tradition, but we must recognize the the contingencies of every tradition.