www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology stand vs kneel

Well, again who determines what is correct liturgically, and what is not? It is all very confusing to the parish when you have one priest who teaches tradition one way, and another yet another way. Who is correct? What is a parish to do when they change pastors frequently? Someone, once and for all, needs to clarify these issues for the people in the pews. Two pastors in a row have taught that we stand, our current one 'doesn't care.' So many, many people are tired of these inconsistencies.

Regarding the communion prayer, "I believe and profess...." do the people in your parishes bless themselves three times at the "Remember me O Lord" part, or do they beat their fist upon their left breast like the Roman Catholics used to do?

Dear Cathy,

In our parish, the majority cross themselves during the "Remember me O Lord...".

I have observed a couple members striking their breast three times, but they are the exception, and not the rule, however, I must say, I feel it is a valid, humble, and appropriate action for that person.

What about your parish?

Michael

Alex,

At my family's UOC-USA parish, and most that I have been too, people kneel at:

Gospel (most)
Creed (most)
We sing to You, We Bless You (all)
Our Father (99%) [Some priests and I have seen Bishops knee]
Communion of Clergy (30-40%)
Prayer for Ukraine/Bozhe Velykiy (All)

I actually like the idea of kneeling at the Our Father. I only do it when I go to Ukrainian Orthodox parishes, which is a lot. Something about it seems proper even though kneeling is a Latinization.

-uc

Breast beating for the prayer before communion in Australia.

ICXC
NIKA

At a nearby Jordanville Russian Orthodox Church people kneel at Eucharistic Prayer. Likewise at some Greek Orthodox (not Old Calendar) that I've gone to. Admittedly mainly old women do this, But is it correct?

N

Are we supposed to cross ourselves during the communion prayer? Or is this another Latinization? I notice the priests and deacons never cross themeselves at this point. Do the people cross themselves in the OCA and ACROD during the communion prayer?

And some of us in Marblehead, Ohio, USA. Specifically, some of us cross ourselves at the three "Remember me, Oh Lord . . ." and then we beat our breasts / hearts at the "Oh God, have mercy on me, a sinner . . . Oh God, cleanse me of my sins and have mercy on me . . . Oh Lord, forgive me for I have sinned against You without number." It is very powerful.

-- John

Dear Friends,

O.K., here is the TRUE Eastern way for laity to relate to kneeling on Sundays.

1) NO kneeling at all!

2) After the "This is My Body" we make the Sign of the Cross and do a waist bow.

3) The same for "This is My Blood"

4) The same for "Thine own of. . ." sorry but I don't know it in English.

5) At the end of the prayer "It is truly meet" we do a waist bow or bow to the floor.

However, when a parish loves kneeling, including bishops and priests (UC's experience is one I've not heard before!), then one has to exercise "pastoral erudition."

There is a saying in Polish: "co popyk, to typyk" or "every priest has his own specific typikon."

That is the problem in our Churches, whether in the Northern Carpathian Ruthenian Catholic Church (UGCC) or the Southern Carpathian Ruthenian Catholic Church (Byzantine Catholic).

So in addition to the "East-West" thingy, we also have a "North-South" issue . . .

God bless all Ruthenians!

Alex

"Well, again who determines what is correct liturgically, and what is not?"

Your bishop.

"It is all very confusing to the parish when you have one priest who teaches tradition one way, and another yet another way. Who is correct? What is a parish to do when they change pastors frequently?"

What is even more confusing is you tell your parishoners that Standing was mandated by Nicea I and it is the Eastern tradition and they walk down the street to the local Orthodox Church and see their church complete with pews and kneelers and people kneeling during Sunday Divine Liturgy, although at slightly different times. It is hard to sell something even the Orthodox are divided on. I think the current instruction to mandate standing from Pascha to Penetcost, while leaving it to the individual the rest of the year is pastorally best for now.

Fr. Deacon Lance

"Are we supposed to cross ourselves during the communion prayer?"

Yes.

"Or is this another Latinization?"

No. One strikes one's breast in Tridentine Rite.

"I notice the priests and deacons never cross themeselves at this point."

I do and every priest and deacon I have served with does as far as I can remember.

"Do the people cross themselves in the OCA and ACROD during the communion prayer?"

As far as I can remember, yes.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Father Deacon Lance,

So even the Orthodox aren't always, well, "Orthodox!"

I remember when we visited the cemetery at Pentecost and our UGCC priest would kneel at the beginning of every panakhyda for "Heavenly King."

We were surrounded by "Orthodox" priests ( ) who simply stood for their services.

I really felt like an "Orthodox Catholic" then!

And when I say that you know everything, it's because I mean it!!

Alex

I know this is how my parish works, but is it the "official" policy of the BC Metropolia?

Also, does the new liturgy people's book include instructions for the people on liturgical posture? And if so, what are the instructions?

I suspect that the no kneeling time also includes any penetential type act either in or out of church. I think it is more to do with that period and it's importance in the liturgical cylcle, than what happens at other times in the year.

I also would not be surprised if the 3x breast beatings came in from the Angus Dei and it's actions in the Latin rite and not possibly without realising where it came from there is an attempt in the Church to de-latinse to give this a byzantine flavour by changing breast beating to signs of the cross, when it could simply be dropped. I have never seen this in Russian Churches but there only the priest says this prayer full voice.

Just a few thoughts.

ICXC
NIKA

Alex,

Come down to Bound Brook. We'll show you how it is supposed to be done.

And then you can get the orange necktie from the Bratstvo.

-uc

Fr. Deacon Lance:

Well, if things were settled by no less than a council of the church in 325, how can we settle for just the "current instruction" when it is deficient. Looks like another catechesis moment for our bishops, whom God loves. Oh wait, that isn't their job, or is it?

Let me go do a little fact checking on this one. I'll go and see if that was listed under the canons of the council, or listed as a suggestion, subject to the local bishop/priest's whim.

Canon 20, Council of Nicea
Perhaps people should be educated by their priest/pastor that kneeling is a sign of penitence, at least as far as the council of the church interpreted it. That was settled 1681 years ago. See, there's that catechesis moment again.

John Scotus