www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology stand vs kneel

I can't resist replying to this. To state whether it is proper whether to make the Sign of the Cross or beat your breast one would have to research whether the Publican was an Eastern or Western Christian.

https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/icons/icon10.gif

As to why the Deacon doesn't do either of these it is because he is holding the most Precious Body of our Lord at that moment. I bow at the time because that is the only practical sign of reverence.

With regard to kneeling or not, what I can't understand is when a service says "Bend your knee.." and the celebrant just stands there. It seems to say that you don't take your prayers very seriously. It seems to me we are spending a lot of credibility and good faith to make it such an important acid test. Some would insist that even for a weekday Divine Liturgy that you should not kneel, contradicting their own explanation.

Let us move as the Holy Spirit inspires us whether it be posture or hand gestures. Is that not what Eastern thought teaches? not forcing one uniform and universal mandate?

From Philippians 2:10

10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth

The Bible is the inspired Word of God. Per the beginning of the Gospel of John, we see this reinforced by the following.

From John 1:1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Isn't it strange, then, that per God, even the demons must kneel, but arguments are presented to the contrary regarding His Real Presence, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Blessed Sacrament in His Churches, His House, i.e., some men find that unacceptable!

In short, this has nothing to do with Latinization. It has everything to do with being obedient to God Almighty! Accordingly, the aforementioned arguments against kneeling are a violation of the principle of non-contradiction.

It also is a violation of common sense. You can stand to honor any man. But you show adoration to He, Whom if He forgot about man but for but a nanosecond, man would cease to exist. It used to be taught in catechesis that the Angels in Churches are in constant prostration before the Blessed Sacrament as a sign of adoration, as has traditionally been kneeling in an ecclesial sense.

Again, the Scripture reference is to the knee specifically bowing, which is why kneelers are in Churches.

stlouisix

Sadly it is clear that you do not understand the traditions of the Eastern Churches.

Perhaps a little more reading before you lecture us would be a good idea

Anhelyna - a member of the UGCC who does NOT kneel on Sundays

For example, one could never use standing as an act of adoration in our culture nor in the
oriental culture. We stand when a bishop or the President of the United States comes into the room, but we do not adore either one
of them. Similarly, today, many bow at the presence of great dignitaries and human authority, but they do not adore them. This is
also the case in oriental cultures today.

Once more, the act of bending the knee before Jesus Christ is not just a relative act, or an act that is based purely on culture.
Rather, it transcends culture because it is an act that has scriptural, traditional, and cosmic significance. God the Father says through Isaiah: "To me every knee shall bend" (Isa. 45:23).

Worship influences doctrine and vice versa. This
"influence" of "worship" on "doctrine" also includes the gestures and postures of worship.

Tradition has to start someplace. And that someplace is very clear here. It starts with the Inspired Word of God, as is very clearly annuciated in Sacred Scripture. We hear a lot of talk about Tradition, but it seems that no one wants to go back to where the tradition really started with God Almighty!

You said
I take it from that that you believe I am being willfully disobedient.

Not so - I obey the traditions of my Church - and despite your comments I will continue so to do

Yes you clearly have no idea or understanding of people outside your own cultural grouping. We stand as free men and women who were freed from the servitude of sin by it's destruction and it has not hold on us anymore. At appropriate times we make prostrations to the holy and holy things. We have our own interpretation of what we do and it may interest you that many on our side see your kneeling as a symble of the servitude of the western European feudal system imprinted on your culture to this very day. But that's my view of what your lot do in your churches. I do admit I dont spend too much time worrying about what RCs get up to, or why. The church has told us through the Pope and the Vatican Council what we should be doing and we are endevouring to do it. Each Church has it's own traditon and should stick to it.

ICXC
NIKA

Dear Stlouisix and PaulB,

Did the old Roman Church cathedrals and churches have pews and kneelers?

Please remember that the East and West shared a common heritage in the Early Church. There are numerous threads discussing pews which provide some great info on the introduction and use.

What gains are received when someone points out that the other is perceived as incorrect in their worship style of God. The path is narrow enough. Do we need to try to sabotage the path for those seeking Truth and Life (Theosis)?

Would you rather be the Pharisee or the Taxman?

In Christ,

Michael

I repeat, "Did God in Sacred Scripture say that
bending the knee is not important?" It would seem that such is not the case given the aforementioned Scriptural references which are hard to ignore.

Accordingly, what is the difficulty with pointing out what God says as opposed to what man says in this regard? Here is one instance where God's Word is very clear! This has nothing to do with East or West. It has everything to do with what God says.

The will of God is made know to us through our Church. Our Church tells us to follow our particular Church practices. If you find our customs so offensive why do you come on to this Byzantine Forum? We should not be under attack here. We have explained our position and that should be the end of it. We operate within the Church, I have no idea where you are coming from.

ICXC
NIKA

This is a forum on a website called The Byzantine Catholic Church in America. As such, there should be no problem with Catholics posting on it. Someone started a thread about kneeling. All that I did was not attack anyone but rather bring to the forum's attention that God has some very important opinions about the necessity for kneeling as recorded in His own words, which is what Sacred Scripture is. It is very hard to argue to the contrary. Thus, there would appear to be a very strong Scriptural foundation for the practice of kneeling in Churches using God's own words. There is no need to get defensive about that? Clearly, the Will of God in this regard is stated by God Himself!

I attend Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgies and am helping an Eastern Priest start up a parish in a larger city in order to support two other parishes.

Stlouisix

You really have not understood what we are saying - we do kneel - but not on Sundays - Sunday is the Day of Resurrection - we are full of joy and our tradition says that we do not kneel then.

BUT tradition does tell us to kneel at other times - as an example take a look at the text of the Liturgy of the Pre-sanctified Gifts - you will see that we kneel then. If I have understood things correctly this Liturgy was given to us by St Gregory the Dialogos [ Pope St Gregory] .

Stlouisix - please understand we have our traditions and we follow them. We were exhorted by no lesser person than HH John Paul II to return to our roots and be faithful to our traditions - and this is exactly what we are trying to do.

I did not realise that scriptures could be used to attach established, venerable and ancient traditions of the Catholic Church, by a person professing to be a Catholic. As a Catholic and a Byzantine I am not into private interpretations of sacred scripture.

ICXC
NIKA

I notice that your Profile says that you are .

As such you should have become aware of our traditions and I trust that your Eastern Priest , who you are assisting , will help you understand them more and more.

I do not ask why it is you are attending EC Liturgies instead of those of the RC Church - that is up to you - and indeed I hope that you will find a home in our Church - but please - I beg you - do not try and make us become like RC Members - we have had these problems in the past and we hope that time had passed.

We have our traditions and they are handed down to us through time - and we love them.