www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology stand vs kneel

I know I'm not Alex but some words have just come to mind.

Brick wall and head and OUCH

St. Louis,

Grace and peace from Our Lord Jesus Christ.

May I begin with my first point? Did you read my post directed to you about the Churches of the East standing for over 1,500 years?

Secondly,
It might surprise you that the East doesn't have Eucharist adoration like the Latins do (unless Orthodox Catholic can correct me with some obscure piece of knowledge I didn't know about ). Therefore kneeling is not an issue for the Churches of the East.

stlouisix,

Alex is refering to your use of stlouisix as a screen name.

As to Nicea:

Canon XX: Since there are some who kneel on Sunday and during the season of Pentecost, this holy synod decrees that, so that the same observances may be maintained in every diocese, one should offer one's prayers to the Lord standing.

Couple this with an unbroken tradition in the East of standing at Liturgy on Sundays and the fifty days (pentecost) from Pascha to Pentecost, and the Kneeling prayers taken at Vespers on Pentecost Evening your arguement is without merit. Adoration of the Eucharist in the form you are talking about was not even practiced at the time of Nicea I, in the East or West. You are reading into the text what you want read to confirm your own bias.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Wow, there has been some really powerful venom exchanged at this post.

People generally kneel at the Sunday Divine Liturgy at the St. Louis Byzantine Catholic Mission. This may be due to the fact that a majority of the congregation are visiting Roman Catholics.

I don't know enough about Eastern Traditions so I try and do what the Byzantine Catholics do out of respect for their Traditions. I am always asking them a lot of questions. They have always been very kind to take the time to talk with me, though some of my questions are pretty silly to someone brought up in the Eastern Traditions.

We have one Lutheran who sits through the entire Liturgy. It doesn't bother anybody. He is welcome, and I think a lot of us are secretly praying that the Holy Spirit leads him to becoming a Catholic or Orthodox.

I have an irregular heartbeat and have problems standing for extended periods of time. Thus, I kneel or sit, but nobody asks why.

I suggest:

If you want to stand, then stand.
If you want to kneel, then kneel.
If you want to sit, then sit.
If you want to leave, then leave.

JP

That�s a little bit strange...In Lutheran service/ mass the people stands many times - during the reading of the gospel and in the beginning of the eucharist for instance.

I guess he likes to sit.

Saint Louis IX is my patron saint, as he was of my father. Accordingly, there should be no problem with a Catholic using his patron saint's name as an identifier anywhere given the encouragment by the Church for intercessory prayers to Mary and the saints, especially our patron saints. I will never forget the feast day of Saint Louis IX of France because my best friend of twenty years at the lab where I work died suddenly on that day on the way to work on August 25, 2005. He posted quite frequently on this forum under Antonius, I believe, which was his identifier. His name was Anthony Joseph Cutezo, Jr. Saint Anthony was his patron saint. He had a tremendous devotion to Saint Joseph. Here is my remembrance of him that was published in my lab's newsletter. He, like me, was a Latin Rite Catholic attending Byzantine Divine Liturgies. He, like me, was a sacrostan for the Byzantine Catholic Church in which we worshipped.

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"I was blessed to have known Anthony for twenty years as a colleague at ARL, but more importantly, as a dear friend to not only me, but also my family. Anthony was the kind of person that all who really knew him considered their "best friend." He was a brilliant engineer in the most quiet and humble of ways. There was nothing that he would not do for you if asked, and usually asking was not required if he saw that you needed something. He had a wonderful sense of humor that was endearing and uplifted everyone around him. What I will remember most about Anthony was his deep lived faith as a Catholic with a tremendous devotion to Saint Joseph, the patron saint of a happy death, given that Jesus and Mary were at Saint Joseph's bedside at the end. Anthony would attribute all of his success in the most difficult of projects at the lab to his prayerful intercession to Saint Joseph. He would tell me repeatedly, "It was not me, but Saint Joseph." Every day when I came to work early with him I would find him starting the day with prayer. For Anthony all that he did was Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam (For the Greater Glory of God). He was a kind and gentle soul who was a tremendous example to all of us. And I know that when he died Saint Joseph would not have let him down, he would have been there with him to comfort him introducing him to Jesus and Mary. We were all the better for knowing Anthony Joseph Cutezo, Jr.. I will miss him very much."
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In the matter of Nicea, There is a huge difference between "should" and "must", the latter typically pertaining to a de fide articles of faith that "must" be believed by the faithful under pain of anathema. Again, what I referenced were the direct words of God in the matter of "knees bending," which can, and have been appealed to by those emphasizing a posture differentiated between adoration owed God, and honor owed man. This has already been respectfully discussed. The point made is that there is solid basis for making this distinction in the Mass or Divine Liturgy, as the case may be. This statement of Nicaea (I) in the 4th century refers to kneeling in general throughout the entire Mass and not just kneeling in part of the Mass. this statement of Nicaea (I) is not a ruling on posture, especially kneeling, as an act of latria or adoration during the Consecration of the Eucharist. If some act or form of latria at the Consecration of the Eucharist had already developed during the first few centuries of the Church, this statement of Nicaea (I) would not have been taken as an order to do away with that act of latria at the moment of Consecration. It would have merely been understood as doing away with the general penitential posture (kneeling for the sake of penance) at other times during prayer and the Liturgy on Sundays. Such is the opinion of many theologians who have studied Nicea, and concluded the following.

The Council of Nicea in AD 325 forbade kneeling on Sundays, because penitential prayer is not appropriate during a celebration of the Resurrection. In western Christianity, kneeling came to mean simple humility and submission, and so kneeling became the normal posture for most prayers in the west. However, to eastern Christians, kneeling still means repentance or supplication.

The servant fell on his knees before him. �Be patient with me,� he begged, �and I will pay back everything.� The servant�s master took pity on him, canceled the debt, and let him go.
�Matthew 18:26

[Jesus] withdrew about a stone�s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, �Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.� An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.
�Luke 22:41-44

In Acts 9:40, St. Peter kneels down and prays before raising Tabitha from the dead. In Acts 20:36, St. Paul kneels down to pray with the elders of the church of Ephesus before leaving them. In Acts 21:5, St. Paul and the others kneel down on the beach and pray at Tyre. Our Lord kneels to pray in the Garden of Olives in Luke 22:41. Daniel kneels to pray in Daniel 6:10, and Solomon kneels to pray in the temple in 2 Chronicles 6:13.

The tradition of kneeling in the Church comes from the example of the Lord and of the Apostles and prophets. In most of these scriptural contexts, the prayer is not penitential in nature.

The following from the link provided makes the distinction that I'm referring to.

http://www.antiochian.org/1295

"How come on Sunday at the Divine Liturgy some people kneel in church and some don't?


"How come on Sunday at the Divine Liturgy some people kneel in church and some don't? (Dec. �02)

"Let us look to the First Ecumenical Council in Nicea (325 AD). The 20th Canon which states that on the Lord�s day (Sunday) and from Easter through Pentecost all must pray standing and not kneeling. Canon 90 from the Council in Trullo (692 AD) reinforces Canon 20 from Nicea and specifies that the celebration of the Resurrection on Sunday begins with the entrance at Vespers on Saturday evening through the entrance at Vespers on Sunday evening.

"We don�t kneel because kneeling is a posture of repentance. On that day we are not repenting, but celebrating the Resurrection.

"During the week it is appropriate to kneel as an act of repentance and faithfulness. Since many Orthodox Christians don�t attend liturgical services throughout the week, the practice developed in many parishes to kneel on Sunday at the Divine Liturgy during the Consecration of the Gifts. It has become an act of piety for some and an act of following the crowd for others."

The point that is made by the advocates of kneeling as latria (adoration)is specifically, "Kneeling cannot be blanketly assumed to ALWAYS be an act of repentence," as was assumed in the above link, and in Nicea I by theologians carefully examining the issue. Rather, it CAN BE a posture directly related to the adoration owed God out of respect for He, Whom if He forgot about man for but a nanosecond, man would cease to exist. Such an interpretation of kneeling has been shown to have a basis in the great tradition of the Church rooted in Sacred Scripture.

That's basically all that I was respectfully trying to say.

Again, there was a group at that time called the Substrati who were penitents, and they knelt through the entire Mass every day, even on Sunday. To the Council of Nicea this looked like fasting all during lent and then fasting on Easter. So they said, "Kneel during the week if you want but on Sunday stand to show your victory over sin." But they were talking about the practice of kneeling for penance, not kneeling for adoration. And in those days the Church did the profound bow and the metany and the prostration before the Blessed Sacrament. They didn�t kneel. Kneeling was an act of penance, a sign of penance. [Please reference http://www.unitypublishing.com/liturgy/KneelingForCommunion.html]

Bottom line, there is a huge difference between kneeling as a sign of penance, and kneeling to adore God Almighty.

As far as references to the unbroken tradition of the East, I'm talking about Eastern Catholics not Orthodox. And there is a tradition of kneeling at the Consecration in Byzantine Catholic Churches to particularly include Sunday!

Yes , a recent tradition in imitation of the Latin practice. The Ecumenical Council of Vatican II and all Popes since, and some before, have called on Eastern Catholcis to shed Latinizations and resume authentic Eastern traditions and not differentiate ourselves from our Orthododx brothers!

The God-Man, Jesus Christ, did not have a difficulty with kneeling to God the Father in the Garden prior to His Passion. Clearly, He did not kneel because of a need on His part to be penitent because He was without sin! So the only explanation remaining is that Jesus knelt as man out of adoration to the Father, and in obedience to His will, which is a pretty good example for the rest of us, I think, especially during those times that we are the closest to God in His Real Presence, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, in His House, especially at that special time when God humbles Himself by coming down on our altars to be with us more than in Spirit!

The "Latin practice" that is so pejoratively referred to appears to follow God's example, per the evidence that has been presented. I do not believe that Jesus kneeling in the Garden could be characterized as Him following a Latin practice.

But the Lord did not kneel after the Resurrection. Orthodox Christians also kneel during Great and Holy Week, but not during the 50 day Feast of Pascha, or on Sundays (when the Resurrection is celebrated).

The reason for this is also Scriptural. The Apostles did not kneel during the 50 days. That is why the angel commented and observed that they were standing, looking for the return of the Lord from the heavens.

Nick

But the Lord did kneel as man prior to the Resurrection, and since none of us have been resurrected as yet; else, we wouldn't be posting on this site, it would seem that a good example to follow is the Lord's as man kneeling to the Father, which is quite an example since we're talking about the God-Man. Our Lord gave us many examples like this in His humanity in that He taught us how to treat our fellow man, loving them as I have loved you, and especially, how to treat God as we live out this vale of tears.

Dear louis,

I was not referring to your taking the name of a Saint - only you using the actual word, "Saint."

Shall I call you "Saint" for short? But that is not the primary issue.

Yes, the tradition of kneeling in EC Churches is in place. More to this, kneeling is done in Orthodox Churches as well. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada allows for kneeling twice during the Sunday Divine Liturgy - 90% of its members are former Eastern Catholics who brought this tradition with them.

That still doesn't mean that this is the practice that the East sanctions as the ideal.

The Council that legislated against kneeling on Sundays and during the Paschal period did not make the distinction between different meanings behind the kneeling.

Kneeling is appropriate in prayer, during Lent and other fasting periods. It is especially appropriate during intense prayer and our Lord, God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, prayed in this way for that reason.

But the celebration of the Divine Liturgy on the Day of the Lord is, first and foremost, the celebration of His Resurrection and Glory and this is why the Council enacted its canon.

The fact that kneeling on Sundays occurs in both EC and Orthodox Churches is a sign of Latinization i.e. an abnormal state.

No one here is against kneeling, even kneeling during the Divine Liturgy/Mass celebrated outside Sundays and the Paschal season.

No one is against kneeling during prayer.

But ideally we should stand on Sundays and throughout the Paschal season as the Universal Church decreed at the First Ecumenical Council.

It is not a canon that is up for interpretation, reinvention or qualification.

As a traditional Catholic, I know you understand this.

When Rome decided, at one point, to move the traditional fast of Wednesdays over to Saturday, the East actually rebuked Rome, despite the role of the Pope, over this.

If you, as a traditional Catholic, would like greater faithfulness among Latin Catholics to Tradition, it would be good if traditional Catholics themselves became more attuned to that Tradition that is primarily reflected in the first Seven Councils of the first millennium of the Church.

If Popes of Rome were capable of legitimately changing that Tradition to include kneeling on Sundays etc., then WHAT is preventing contemporary Popes from enacting legislation to change the Order of the Mass (ie. Novus Ordo) and other matters that many traditional Catholics today are alarmed about and even oppose?

The standard for Latins and for Easterners must include a renewal based on the canons of the Councils of the first millennium.

That is what we, as Eastern Christians, are committed to and though we fall short of it, we are striving toward this as our ultimate goal.

Alex

stlouisxi,

Why do you persist in placing your interpretation above the tradition of the East and teaching of Ecumencial Councils?

I notice you consistently and conveniently avoid acknowledging references to Eastern tradition (Orthodox and Catholic), Ecumenical Councils, and Popes which disagree with your personal interpretations.

Fr. Deacon Lance