www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology stand vs kneel

Dear "stlouisix"

First of all, it is Catholic tradition to try and not assume the names of Saints, in your case, that of St Louis of France - but that is your choice.

Secondly, when and where did God say we are to kneel during the Divine Liturgy?

If you can show me this and convince me of this, I will agree with you.

Thirdly, how else can the Ecumenical Council that forbade kneeling on Sundays be understood?

Are you saying, by quoting Pope Piux XII, that he promoted disobedience to the Canons of the Ecumenical Councils?

How is disobedience to a Canon a legitimate foundation for liturgical development or theological development of any kind for that matter?

In addition, is not the matter of kneeling a moot point in the Latin Church that has severely curtailed this practice?

Dominus Vobiscum!

Alex

How does that song go??

Why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends....



-uc

Aw, shucks, that ain't any fun!

Dear UC,

If you are referring to me, I like ALL Tridentines!

Don't we Ukrainians especially honour the Trident to begin with?

And as for that poster's calling himself "St Louis IX," listen:

I've read about St Louis, I venerate St Louis, I've visited sites associated with St Louis - he is no "St Louis!"

Alex

St Louis,

The Pope in 16th Century that accepted the Union of Brest, Union of Uzhorod, etc... allowed Byzantine Catholics of the Ruthenian Rite to maintain their traditions. These "traditions" include standing during the Divine Liturgy. The BCC has been standing during the Divine Liturgy for more than 1,500 years.

I don't think you are calling the Pope's of Rome and the Patriarchs of the Church heretics. You just need to study a little more.

Yours in Christ!

Pane Doktor,

Tridentines have ruined my parish. I am in no way supporting them.

I was just trying to bring in some humor, because in my experience, Tridentines are bitter people who rarely smile and enjoy life.

I guess a Council in the Vatican will ruin your day.

Do you hear the people sing? Singing the song of angry men? It is the music of a people who will not be slaves again!

And I, for one, appreciate that humor, ukrainiancatholic!

Just one question, and I address this to East as well as to West: I think we all acknowledge that our respective traditions officially either mandate, or forbid, kneeling.

But isn't there room for individual diversity? If an individual attending a Liturgy feels so strongly that kneeling is the only proper posture for him/her at the Consecration, is there any reason why he/she (it?) can't just go ahead and kneel? And to you Trad Caths, can you allow a visiting Easterner to stand during Mass, if he/she/it/they feel similarily inclined?

Do we all have to march in lockstep at all times? As long as the individual in question isn't kicking someone in the shins when they kneel, or whacking them across the face when they stand, so what?

I would say no. There is an ole' saying:
I go to a TLM once in a blue moon. When I go, I do all the Latin stuff (holy water, genuflect, kneel, etc...).

I also when attending a Latin Rite Church kneel, sit and stand as they do. I do not give them lessons in how to suck liturgical eggs. I do not go there to show them how it should be done.

Yes I have known the Tredentines to try to impose themselves on UGCC Parishes here and were to put it bluntly a real pain to the whole Parish. We were releaved when they had somewhere else to go. They are so ignorant and so pushy. We not need lessons from them is how to do anything, including egg sucking.

I will stick to the instructions from the Pope. If they cant do that as well, then sorry but they should go elsewhere and bother God with their superior knowledge from another Church, preferably one of their own.

Anyone who is prepared to come to our Church in humility and a with a little curiosity to see and expereince another Church tradition and is willing to learn, is very welcome on the other hand.

ICXC
NIKA

Now come on - is that really the impression that I was conveying? Giving lessons on how to suck liturgical eggs? All I meant was that if someone is visiting your church and they don't know the rubrics, let them do what is comfortable for them.

As long as they're not trying to make YOU do the same thing, so what? Who is being hurt if someone kneels for the Consecration instead of standing, or vice versa?

I guess I am just on the wrong side in this debate, but honestly, I just don't get this "everyone has to be doing exactly the same thing, at exactly the same time, in exactly the same way" thing. Guess my '60's brainwashing is finally taking effect.

Dear Gal ,

No-one objects to visitors kneeling etc - we can't expect them to understand our traditions - well not till they have been with us for a good wee while and absorbed things in their own time.

After all we don't go to a Roman parish and say " You should not kneel on Sundays - it's the day of the Resurrection - kneeling is penitential " Nor do we demand to say an Akathist , and expect others to join us in that , before Mass.

By the same token - we do not expect folk who start as Visitors in our Parishes and stay with us , to start telling us what we should do . Not only is that wrong , in the case of kneeling , to my mind it's also impolite .

And I certainly don't expect to find someone coming to Byzcath to tell us all that we are doing it all wrong and we should be following the Roman tradition of kneeling and other practices .

Anhelyna - who took a very long time to realise that she had to go East.

I did not thing you were saying that.

However, in the Byzantine tradition there is no targeting of one point in the Anaphora as the Latins tradition has done. The consecration is in the context of the Anaphora or Eucharistic Prayer. A number of points (the Epiclesis for example) have to be passed in the context of that great prayer and then at the end of the Anaphora the All Holy is venerated.

I would find having someone doing something totaly different to the congregation annoying and a distraction to be honest.

ICXC
NIKA

Well, once again (or perhaps, for the first time - I may not have been making myself clear; it's been one of those days!), I'm trying to make a case for charity and for not being overly judgmental about the posture of others during Liturgy.

Most of us raised in the Latin Rite are NEVER going to completely get over the instinct to bend our knees when we hear the words of the Consecration, and a lot of us will still kneel when it's possible to do so, even though we "know better". I have been in the B.C. church for a couple years now, and I'm used to standing when we're supposed to stand, and sitting when we're supposed to sit, and bowing when we're supposed to bow, and prostrating when we're supposed to prostrate (well - watching other people prostrate! sometimes it's hard for me to get all the way down there! ).

But I still feel the instinct to kneel at a certain point in the Liturgy (as I told a friend last weekend, I have a "knee-jerk reaction" ), and even though I *don't*, I know people who do, and my feeling is, "so what?" If they want to kneel, let them kneel. It's no skin off my knees.

Such a charitable discussion for the Great Fast/Lenten season...

I agree...when in Rome do as...when in Byzantinum do as...East is East, West is West, respect them for their unique differences .

Get a grip people...

james

First of all what Catholic tradition are you talking about to not assume the names of saints? Certainly, not in the Latin Rite where the names of saints are encouraged to be taken, e.g., this is encouraged during reception of the Sacrament of Confirmation. Are Catholic parents not to name their children after saints? The suggestion is patently absurd. My father's name was Louis. He died when I was 10 years old. Was he not entitled to that name? By what Catholic directive is that claim made?

Second, you conveniently ignore everything that I said in my posts, which make a logical direct appeal to the importance of kneeling to the words of God Himself in Sacred Scripture. Thus, it is reasonable to see why kneeling is encouraged for adoring God in Catholic liturgies. How about speaking to what I said?

Third, that council that forbade kneeling made no such declaration in regard to adoration, which is the point at hand, but rather for penitential purposes, as observed by many theologians who are in disagreement with you.

Your comment about Pius XII ignores everything in the post about him.

What canon are you talking about re kneeling? We've already discussed what Nicea didn't say. Where is it a de fide teaching of the Catholic Church that kneeling cannot be allowed during the Sacred Liturgy, and anyone who does it is anathema? Please provide the reference.

As for the disparaging uncharitable comments about Saint Louis IX, my patron saint, my middle name is Louis after my father, that speaks volumes as to the pettiness of those on this thread who have no answers but must resort to ridiculing those with whom they have disagreements, which is something that I did not do, I recall.