www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology stand vs kneel

You keep erroneously referring to "my personal intepretations," despite the evidence I give of those in the Church Universal, clergy and laity alike to include many theologians who are in complete agreement. How can it be "my personal interpretation" when you're presented with a link from an Orthodox Site which says exactly what I have presented in terms of the penitential referral to kneeling, and why they don't do it because so?

I keep putting out the obvious in regard to what words really mean, and that is ignored. I could ask you the same question. Why is that?

Please cite what Pope disagrees with kneeling as a form of Latria (adoration) proper to God. Sed contra, a look at any comprehensive Papal Encyclical site, and the Catholic Encyclopedia, to name two prominent references, refinforces what I'm saying. And just what is it that I'm saying that is difficult here.

What I'm saying is that, for Catholics, latria shown to God during the Sacred Liturgy in the form of kneeling has been a very common practice. There have been some on this thread who would dismiss that out-of-hand for Catholics using the Orthodox as an example. What the Orthodox teaching or tradition is along these lines is well known. What I'm saying is that it is equally well known why the tradition of kneeling is held as proper for Catholics!

Why should the title "Saint" be excluded from his name to distinguish his very special place among the Church Triumphant in Heaven, i.e., his life being a prayer for a Kingdom not of this world?

The fact that the Council did not formerly make any distinction between the different meanings regarding kneeling does not mean that they didn't exist. Moreover, they are expressly understood as such by the Orthodox ref that I provided regarding not kneeling because it is penitential referencing Nicea as the basic source. Again, this has been pointed out by many studying Nicea.

What you're referring to as "an abnormal state" in terms of latria proper to God would appear to be in conflict with the example of God Himself, which has been previously discussed. Again, there is a distinct difference between "should" and "must." Thank God for that. It would be odd for a Council of the Church to forbid kneeling during Sacred Liturgy at Catholic Churches upon pain of anathema, which Nicea did not do, as has been observed by many theologians who have studied it, in particular, in reference to those using its argument to change the Latin Rite posture.

Catholics are not restricted to the Canons of the Council of the first Millenium. The Church has been in existence for 2000 years, not 1000.

There is no doctrine of papal impeccability that is defide. Popes make mistakes. This history of the Church bears witness to this. Liberius excommunicated Athanasius who saved the Church from Arianism. Such mistakes have not been made in re to de fide infallible dogma declared via the extraordinary (ex cathedra) or ordinary Magisterium because the Church is protected by the Holy Ghost in such matters. Catholics can legitimately argue that the Novus Ordo has been a huge mistake, for example, because all of the leading Catholic indicators, numbers of priests, nuns, religious, et al, have almost exponentially plummeted since the Council, a Council I might add, that made the Novus Ordo an option, not the norm, the norm remaining the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Pius V, which every priest has a right to say per recent statements from Curia cardinals in reporting to the Pope reinforcing Quo Primum.

Wow.

Maybe it's the Guiness but I always thought this was Byzantine Forum. I had no idea this is a Roman Catholic one! To think I have been posting in the wrong place for the last 4 years!

Is outrage!

All this stuff about the Latin Mass and this Counil and that Council and where we kneel and where we don't reallys gets confusing after a while.

All I know is that we, in the East, have our Traditions, our norms, our Canon Law, our Saints, our Synods, our bishops, our priests, our faithful and the Body and Blood of Christ.

We are entitled to all that is ours through Holy Tradition and through the Canon of the Eastern Churches. Nothing will change that.

Our House is build on firm ground, baby! Not on any sand!

I have yet to hear about one Saint who spent his whole life bickering over to kneel or not to kneel. I am not a betting man, but I'd wager they were just a little more worried about Loving God and the Marvels of His Creation.

For Example. Blessed Zenon Kovalyk, as we was being nailed to the cross in that prison in L'viv. Do you think this last thoughts were, "I should have knelt more in church?"

Geez, to think, a Council in the Vatican can ruin your day.

-uc

p.s. Smile folks. Life is good.

Almost all of the �evidence� you offer is taken out of context. And your continued dismissal of everything you personally don�t like in the Church can only be described as anti-Catholic. You are doing nothing more than taking the extreme Latin approaches and treating them as those of the universal Church, despite the actual teachings of Pope John Paul the Great, the Seven Ecumenical Councils and other authoritative teaching that tell us otherwise.

Since this is a thread on standing vs kneeling, I must ask you to produce some sort of authoritative teaching that rescinds the direction of the First Ecumenical Council on the need to stand on Sundays (instead of knelling) in honor of the Resurrection, one which is directed as Byzantines. If you cannot produce these directives (aimed specifically at Byzantines) then you must either withdraw your claims or admit that they are no more than your personal beliefs.

The Byzantine Catholic Church and The Byzantine Forum are not places for you to launch continued attacks against everything that you hate in the Roman Catholic Church. We are not Latin Catholics with a Slavic accent. If you are not interested in becoming Byzantine Catholic (you list yourself as a �Traditional Latin Rite Catholic�) then you ought to go home to your Latin Catholic Church and work out your issues there. I will not allow you to continue to attempt to push your personal understanding of Catholic theology as if were actually legitimate Catholic theology.

Consider this to be your only warning.

Admin

Dear Alex,

I don't know about stlouisix, but just wanted to say "thanks", as both you in your post above, and Steve Petach in a phone conversation yesterday, made this same point and after some meditation, it has really helped clear up the issue for me.

In stlouisix' defense, while it hasn't been the case in this particular thread, there have been occasions on this forum where the practice of kneeling has been spoken of rather disparagingly, so that perhaps some Latin Rite visitors get the impression that Eastern Rite Catholics think it's "bad" or "wrong" to kneel - when actually, as you explain above, it's just a matter of doing so at the proper place and time.

Maybe during this Lent we can all, East and West, re-examine our attitudes towards each others' practices, devotions and traditions and try to be more careful about the way we discuss them in public places, like this Forum. (And I'm definitely including myself first and foremost in this recommendation! )

Love,
Dolly

Are you folks still arguing about this? Its worse than my little sister and me - we argued about everything growing up just to be arguing. Some of these comments would make great comedy on Jon Stewart and the Daily Show.

Dear Dolly,

Well, I certainly grew up kneeling at Mass . . .er, I mean "Divine Liturgy!"

When I attend Liturgy at other parishes and others kneel, I think it appropriate to kneel so as not to call attention to myself - I do that too much already in other contexts . . .

As the Administrator said above (good of him to drop by the Forum - and just in time too! ), it is a question of liturgical context.

I don't think anyone will be excommunicating anyone for kneeling on Sunday and it will take a lot to get ALL EC's to stand or follow other of their traditions that, if we were forced to follow them, would probably make most of us feel really uncomfortable.

I still can't understand, for example, why there are EC's who don't see the clear Eastern roots of the rosary and scapular!! Can you imagine . . .

My rule in general when it comes to devotions that RC's have is that, if you have it, then it must have come from the East first!

I understand stlouisix - I'll call him "Saint" for short. Truth be told, I can forgive him for his kneeling thing. I don't call myself "Saint Alex" after my patron and so I don't know why he calls himself "stlouis."

Is it strange of me to keep on him for that? Yes? All right, I"ll stop . . .

When I"m in an RC church, I will genuflect on my right knee. And when I met Her Majesty the Queen, I genuflected on my left.

Sorry for mentioning the latter on St Patrick's Day!!

Erin go Bragh!

Alex (wearing the green today)

Dear John Patrick,

Yes, they're still arguing about that, can you imagine!

And on a fine day like the one dedicated to Saint Padraig of Eire!!

How does one exactly pronounce "Slainte?"

(In case you haven't noticed, the Administrator's surname isn't "Irish-sounding")

I, at least, can get away by calling myself "Ronan" (as opposed to "Roman") for today . . .

Alex

Ronan the Contrarian?

(Just teasing, Alex! You are the least contrary person around here, usually! )

Orthodox Catholic:

I have a question about the way the Rosary is said at the St. Louis Byzantine Catholic Mission. I should probably ask one of our Byzantine Catholics, but I already ask them enough questions each weekend (Divine Liturgy is on Saturday evening because this is the only time we can use the Chapel at St. Mark's).

We stand during the first, third, and fifth mysteries. We sit during the second and fourth. Do you have any understanding why this would be the practice?

I'm not complaining; I can only stand or kneel for so long due to health problems.

JP

You pray the rosary at the Byzantine Catholic mission?

Why don't you try switching to the Divine Mercy chaplet?

+T+
Michael

I give up you guys are determined to turn these Byzantine Churches you go to into Roman Catholic Churches with all your kneeling down and Rosaries and any other RC things you can think of. You clearly read nothing on us and yet this site recommends books that would enlighten you as to our liturgical & spiritual traditions.

You are insensitive to a people who in order to be Catholic had to become 3rd and 4th class ones for a long time. Various people have tried to get past your hardness of heart to explain what is happening in our various Byzantine traditions and why and keep coming back with more Latinism.

There clearly needs to be more Trendentine Churches established in where ever it is you live, as that is what you are missing so badly. Other people come to our Churches and are as keen as mustard to join in and learn new and different ways and just love it. I simply give up, go and do your own thing, nothing we say is making an ounce of difference.

I need a stiff drink. Where is the tea pot.

ICXC
NIKA

Because that is what the Byzantine Catholics pray. The Scriptural Rosary is prayed 30 minutes before Divine Liturgy begins, and the Byzantine Catholics outnumber the Roman Catholics 2-1 at that time of day. So, we do what they do.

I just presumed the Scriptural Rosary was an Eastern Tradition, or perhaps a Ruthenian-Byzantine one. I would not presume to suggest that they stop what they have been doing for more than 25 years.

The Scriptural Rosary is different than what I was taught in Roman Catholic grade school. Before each Hail Mary, a Scriptural passage is read pertaining to the specific Mystery upon which you are to contemplate. For example, a Scripture about the Passion of Christ is read before each Hail Mary during the Sorrowful Mystery.

Adding the Scriptural passage makes praying the Rosary twice as long, but it seems to take half the time to pray it because your mind does not wander all over the place. It keeps you focused on the Mystery. I highly recommend the Scriptural Rosary to all Roman Catholics, and anyone else who prays the Rosary.

Now back to my question: Does anyone know why we stand during the first, third, and fifth Mysteries, but sit during the second and fourth? I don't want to ask the Byzantines at Church tomorrow night because I already sound like a dunderdorf.

One of the Byzantine Catholics gave me the Scriptural Rosary book; they use it in place of the beads. I assume it is available through an Eastern Catholic or Orthodox bookstore.

JP

JP,
Matins, not the Rosary, is the traditional Eastern service preceding the Divine Liturgy.
-Wolfgang

Pavel Ivanovich:

There is no determination on my part to turn the St. Louis Byzantine Catholic Mission into a Roman Catholic Church. I respect and try to follow along with what appear to be the Eastern Traditions of this Mission.

It is beyond my experience why the Byzantine Catholics have certain rituals at this Mission. For all I know, this may be another part of the Holy Spirit's Americanization of the Byzantine Catholic Church.

I just to sing the Divine Liturgy, though I should probably hum due to my inability to carry a tune.

JP