www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Seeking information about dates for Easter Calculation

That's quite young ! but I fear I have come to really appreciate it ! The best I was ever permitted to taste was given to me on my honeymoon many many years ago , by one of my husnband's former teachers. It was colourless and poured out of a lemonade bottle [ fizzy drink tasting vaguely of lemon !]. Wow - about 10 minutes later I knew I had had something really special. Have been hooked on the stuff ever since .

It may be sinful but.........
Angela

Dear Brendan,

Yes, I was wondering when you would be responding to my questions . . .

I can hear a certain ROCOR bishop right now - that man must be a convert from Catholicism!

But I know you would probably expect that sort of thing.

Without a united Church, anything Rome would have done to the calendar would have been criticized and rejected by Orthodoxy, I don't see any way around that.

At the time, even many Western parishes and Protestant churches rejected the Gregorian Reform.

Italian Catholic bishops and members of the faithful were even punished for rejecting the new calendar which some called "heretical" (these were Catholics!).

The Anglican Church and others rejected it because it emanated from the Roman Pope. That was reason enough, although the Eastern Patriarchs put forward others in addition.

Fr. Serge Keleher, an Eastern Catholic, once told me that the new Calendar wreaked havoc on Eastern feast days and screwed up fasting periods that precede them (?).

Again, both Eastern Catholic and Orthodox "dyed in the wool" Old Calendarists would reject outrightly any suggestion that the calendar should be changed due to its inherent incorrectness. I think they readily admit that, but say the Church's liturgical year lives apart from the spirit of the world etc.

There are also those Eastern Catholic and Orthodox peoples who see in the Old Calendar a cultural expression of their identity (or seige mentality?).

Have you ever met my aunt? If you ever do, please do North America a favour and keep the Old Calendar out of your conversation . . .

Alex

"I can hear a certain ROCOR bishop right now - that man must be a convert from Catholicism!"

I don't necessarily disagree with the O.C. view point, but I don't agree with all of the articulated reasons.

"Without a united Church, anything Rome would have done to the calendar would have been criticized and rejected by Orthodoxy, I don't see any way around that."

Agree. My vote, therefore, would be to not do anything. Rome perceived itself at the time as coterminous with the Church, however, and so that option was not taken -- that is unfortunate, in my opinion.

"Fr. Serge Keleher, an Eastern Catholic, once told me that the new Calendar wreaked havoc on Eastern feast days and screwed up fasting periods that precede them (?)."

Another problem of combining the Gregorian Menaion and the Julian Paschalion, that principally impacts the Fast of the Apostles -- in some years (including 2002), it simply doesn't exist because Pentecost (pegged to the date of Pascha) falls so late relative to June 29.

"Again, both Eastern Catholic and Orthodox "dyed in the wool" Old Calendarists would reject outrightly any suggestion that the calendar should be changed due to its inherent incorrectness. I think they readily admit that, but say the Church's liturgical year lives apart from the spirit of the world etc."

I can understand that argument, and I am somewhat sympathetic to it, but at the time that the Julian Menaion and Paschalion were adopted, the then-current civil calendar (ie, the Julian calendar) was followed, not some mystical, "not of this world" religious calendar. Therefore, this is really an ex post justification and not really what was going on when the Julian calendar was adopted in the first place.

What I find more important is that whatever calendar system we adopt we do so not on a unilateral basis, and in a manner that does not create anomolies like the effective abolition of the Apostles Fast in some years or the long-term problem of the 'creeping date' for Pascha.

Brendan

Dear Brendan,

Yes, that was it, the Apostles' Fast - you are good, Friend!

How would you envision a way out of this for both East and West, even before a union council might restore unity?

In other words, can the Calendar issue be resolved apart from its (unnecessary) connection to theology and the issue of who is the true Church?

My view, as a Catholic, is, if you, as an Orthodox, are happy with it, then I will be too.

This view of mine also applies at home with my wife.

Alex

"How would you envision a way out of this for both East and West, even before a union council might restore unity?"

Dunno about that. The problem we have is that Nicea I dealt specifically with the Paschalion issue, and so it's going to be hard to do anything about the calendar (fixed or Paschal) without another council, if we wish to do so in a way that doesn't cause further schisms.

The purist approach would be to return to the Old Calendar for both Menaion and Paschalion -- but that's likely not going to happen in the West, because the Western Church is accustomed to having its liturgical calendar match the civil calendar. The converse -- trying to have the Orthodox Churches adopt a new calendar -- is theoretically possible with the agreement of all Orthodox Churches, but in light of the calendrical polemic that has arisen since the Gregorian calendar was introcuced, and which intensified after some Orthodox Churches adopted the Gregorian Menaion, I doubt that a majority of churches would support following a new calendar (ie, a new, non-Julian, non-Gregorian calendar).

"In other words, can the Calendar issue be resolved apart from its (unnecessary) connection to theology and the issue of who is the true Church?"

I think it can be, but I tend to see this in practical terms -- ie, what is achievable. I don't think it's achievable to effect another calendar change in Orthodoxy at this time. The "compromise" of using the Orthodox Paschalion and Gregorian Menaion (already followed by some Orthodox) will not be generally acceptable in Orthodoxy (which it would need to be to avoid further schisms) due to the baggage, in some Orthodox minds, associated with the Gregorian Menaion, as well as the problem of the Apostles Fast and the creeping date of Pascha. I honestly don't see much movement in this issue in the neqr future because it is such a highly charged, emotional issue in Orthodoxy itself.

Brendan

Dear Brendan,

Yes, yes, you are a realist and very pragmatic, despite the fact that you are Orthodox. (Really, they're lucky to have you. If you ever want to come back, you know you will be welcomed with open arms!)

I understand the Orthodox Church of Finland follows both Gregorian Calendar and Paschalion.

In the Ukrainian Church, it is also an issue with culture and ethnic group maintenance, although, to be honest, I really don't see too many youth in Church on OC Nativity!

And, I understand that the Armenian Church in the Holy Land celebrates their Christmas on January 18th, or OC Epiphany, but according to the pre-twentieth century calculation, not having skipped the needed extra day.

Some Anglican Churches also continue to celebrate "Yule" on January 6th for the same reason.

When it comes to calendars, some people have too much time on their hands, it would seem . . .

Alex

Angela,

I know 12 years is young. The 25-year bottle was beyond my price range (US$100+).

I did get one with a smokey flavor and honey. Smoooooooooth shtuff. :p

Why can't the Christian Pascha be on the Jewish Passover; the Christian Pentecost be on the Jewish Pentecost; the Christian Transfiguration be on the Jewish Tabernacles (didn't the Apostles want to make 'tents'?); etc???????? Wouldn't this solve our calendar problems?

Why do we have to be so 'Marcion-like' in our calendar ways? This seems to be the real issue underlying our need to be different. Just like Greek Catholics had to straighten the lower bar of a ByzSlav cross 'to be different', Christians had to change things 'to be different' from the Synagogues of Satan. Go back to our original Jewish-Christian calendar and eliminate the baggage (often polemical) accumulated from theological and political pack-rats.

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Edwin ]

"Why can't the Christian Pascha be on the Jewish Passover"

First Ecumenical Council said that it was not to be celebrated with the Jews on Passover. At the time, it was adopted as a legitimate measure to counter the Judaising tendencies of some, but the deeper significance of this is that Easter happened *after* the Jewish Pasch. Therefore, I, for one, would not be in favor of altering the canon of Nicea I in favor of following the Jewish Paschalion.

Brendan

Dear Edwin,

Now I really like YOU. Great issues that I wish we talked more about.

That whole business of straightening the lower bar of the Eastern Cross, for instance.

One group of fanatics once came with a little saw and took it out completely at a public service for the dead.

One Archbishop once wrote that there were indeed three-bar Crosses with perfectly horizontal foot-rests - but those artists were ignorant of the true tradition . . .

The Quartodecimans did indeed celebrate Easter right on the 14 Nisan, as you know better than I.

And we have taken over the three main Feasts as you describe.

In a number of Oriental Orthodox Churches, they do call the Feast of the Transfiguration, the "Feast of Tabernacles" and set up tents outside for prayer!

But that's all I know on the subject. I already have enough problems eating through two sets of Christmas holidays.

If a third calendar is going to get thrown into the fray, I'm afraid I'll have to sign up for "Weight-Watchers!"

Alex