www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology New Latinized Archbishop and Metropolitan

Only time will tell if the choices are correct. In the past there have been those who were of more dubious reign who were "cradle" byzantine.

Pray that our new leaders will show the wisdom to guide the Byzantine Catholic church on a steady, right course into the 21st century.

Steve Petach

Edited for the sake of brevity (SP)

[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: Steve Petach ]

I will probably never understand the constant fear of Latinization among Eastern Catholics.

It is almost as if you want him over for dinner but you want him to stay in the closet.

Basically, in your union with him, you have given him ultimate power over everything - yet, if he tries to exercise it, you rebel. So who really has the authority in the Church? If you say the pope then I have to ask: If he were to demand you to be completely Latinized would you do it?

(I realize the Latinization issue is about resistance to an organic tendency than a conscience one, but it still begs the question.)

Dear Orthodoxy or Death,

Curious question. Still, it is precisely an obedience to the Holy Father, that we resist Latinization, and embrace Orthodoxy in its fulness. He has commanded (and we are delighted to obey), "Be Orthodox, in communion with Peter."

Latinizations were often self imposed, and more often than not, it is Rome that has regularly rejected efforts of our bishops and religious (certain Latin trained and formed religious Orders) who sought to corrupt the purity of the Eastern Tradition.

The communion is one of love, not of power. The idea of authority you speak about is a mistaken notion, it is neither Orthodox nor scriptural. "Let it not be so among you... I am in your midst as one who serves."

Elias

Thank you for your kind response.

I would like to respectfully say that a description of any idea could be acceptable unless their appears contradictory realities. An example of this might be in 1054, when it was claimed by the Germanic Pope that the Eastern Romans "deleted" the Filioque from the Nicene Creed. It would be a completely legitimate argument without reality.

One of many counterdictary realities here would be that Orthodox Popes fully accepted the dogmatic authority of all Roman Ecumenical Councils, including the eighth of 879 which condemned the Filioque in the Nicene Creed and annulled the Council of 869.

So when you say union with Rome is a union of love and not of power there are certain realities that immediately enter my mind.

You cited the example of Luke 22:24-29, but the Latins have been very guarded to reference these passages.

And why? Because it is shocking that even after the infamous "on this Rock" pronouncement, and on the very eve of Christ's death, a discussion arose among the apostles as to who should be considered the greatest among them. They obviously did not receive Peter the same way modern popes claim.

You say: "The idea of authority you speak about is a mistaken notion, it is neither Orthodox nor scriptural." Indeed. But I am merely identifying the unmistakable power you have given to the "greatest among you" which is evidenced in the union your bishops signed.

Call it what you like, the realities say something else.

[ 05-25-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Instead of hoping for the abolition of these "orders", why don't you just look at them through a Byzantine lens?

While it is true that in the Eastern understanding there are "just monks or nuns" there is also the reality that practically every monastery writes their own typikon (using the wisdom from their monastic forebearers, and looking at their particular situation), or follows a pre-existing one (the Typikon of Saint Basil, the Typikon of the Studion, etc). If that's the case, what's wrong with Byzantine monks who wish to follow "the Typikon of Saint Francis"? So maybe they wear a brown riasa instead of a black one... big deal!

By the way, there was a monastery (known as the "Amalfion") on Mount Athos which used the Rule of Saint Benedict.

In the end, it could be said that ALL monastics have ONE rule in common: the Gospel. I wish we non-monastics would stop judging these men and women who are probably doing a much better job at following the Gospel than we are!

On a side note, I think Timothy Herman and John Cantius need to collaborate and write a book entitled "I Was a Teenage Vostochnik" (I'm 19 and Orthodox, so I'm allowed to say that. hehe)

S'Bohom,

-David

"The whole teaching of the Latin Fathers may be found in the East, just as the whole teaching of the Greek Fathers may be found in the West. Rome has given St. Jerome to Palestine. The East has given Cassian to the West and holds in special veneration that Roman of the Romans, Pope Gregory the Great. St. Basil would have acknowledged St. Benedict of Nursia as his brother and heir. St. Macrina would have found her sister in St. Scholastica. St. Alexis the 'man of God,' 'the poor man under the stairs,' has been succeeded by the wandering beggar, St. Benedict Labre. St. Nicholas would have felt as very near to him the burning charity of St. Francis of Assisi and St. Vincent de Paul. St. Seraphim of Sarov would have seen the desert blooming under Father Charles de Foucauld's feet, and would have called St. Th�r�se of Lisieux 'my joy.'"

-Father Lev Gillet aka "A Monk of the Eastern Church"

[ 05-25-2002: Message edited by: Chtec ]

What does being from a Franciscan back ground have to do with Latinizations anyway?

One can be very much Orthodox in spirituality and liturgy. No ?
Stephanos I

PS A humourus point the Bishop of Mt Etna, at that time in the Russian Orthodx Church Outside of Russia thought I was as Orthodox as the rest of them. :rolleyes:

[ 05-25-2002: Message edited by: Stephanos I ]

Actually, even though they may have cordial relations with Catholics, I think a Catholic who were to convert to the Coptic church would be recieved through baptism.

Dear Forum Readers,

It has been brought to my attention by one of the Forum readers that my original response to John Cantius on May 24th was the equivalent of a "bully � picking on a 17 year old". While I don't quite agree with that analogy I have realized that my post was cynical to the point of being sarcastic. I apologize to Mr. Cantius for my comments. I do continue to believe that it was inappropriate for Mr. Cantius - or any Forum participant - to make such accusations without personal knowledge and evidence to support such an accusation. Personal opinion is one thing. Presenting personal opinion as fact is quite another.

Administrator

Yes, I was just thinking of writing you a personal message about this, but I am glad that I do not have to now.

However, I must say that everyone at this Forum has the right to voice thier opinion, and we can all listen to the opinion, no matter how wrong, factually speaking, it may be.

At this point I would like to mention that Forum really, likes to label groups, people, parishes, and different Churches as "Byzantine" or "Latin", "truly Orthodox" or "really Catholic", etc. These terms are very vague. Often people on this Forum enjoy criticizing something as being "Latin" when it actually has it's origins in the Byzantine East. And the same happens the other way too, where we embrace something that the Orthodox do, when it is a blatant (historically provable) "Latinization".

READ SOME BOOKS! That is what I am going to do this summer, and I suggest that lots of time spent on this very good Forum can be used even better through prayer and reading books on matters of faith and Liturgy.

Daniil, the hypocrite

PS I understand this is really off topic. Sorry

PPS The Monks of New Skete were once Franciscans. Look at them now.

Daniil,

Yes the monks at New Skete may have once been Franciscans, but after a quick glance at the �artwork� they adore their facilities with, I am at a loss as to what they are now.

Hristos A Inviat !
Christ is Risen!

This maybe of topic here, but can someone put a list together or books worth reading on the topic of Monasticism. I know of several, but they come from the... shhhhh Latin tradition. I would like to do some summer reading in the Byzantine or Orthodox tradition of Monasticism before returning to seminary in the fall when I will have no time to read anything other than what I am assigned to read.

God Bless,

Peter

Dear Brother Peter,

Yes, sadly, a little off topic...

In fact I think this thread should be closed, as it has wandered far away from its original idea. (perhaps because of a flaw in the premise?).

There was a recent thread I think titled "monasticism" which shared some quite good ideas. Perhaps we can revive it, or start a new thread. It is a topic I would be interested in reading!

Elias