www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Is Islam a heresy?

The Encyclopaedia Britannica notes the "almost boundless toleration" of the Muslims:

What happened to the Jews in Syria, Iran and other countries of the peace-loving Moslem nations? Where are they today? The Jehovah Witnesses are much closer to Judaism than Islam(much closer than you might believe).

The Church of Christ is the New Israel. Archeology is all very fine, but the truth is that there is only one way to God and that is by way of the Son. Abraham entertained the three strangers i.e. the Holy Trinity and even the pagan Nebuchadnezzar, saw the Son of God in the furnace.

Of course we should live in peace with each other, but that has nothing to do with heritage or false belief.

Fr Serafim

Peace be with all!
Thank you for all your posts, they have been most helpful and enlightening.
Abdur, your struggle (play on words with "jihad") with us Christians does not go un-noted, though I cannot say whether the notes are good or bad in the records of God...
I must side with the majority of my Christian brethren on this one, as history, the Qur'an and the Sunna/Hadith all seem to point to some discreet form of non-chalcedonism gone even more awry. I must also correct myself, replace the word "heresy" with "misconception" or "freak non-chalcedonism".

As for what was said by Abdur regarding converts, I tell you this now. Every convert I have spoken to were all ill-informed about the religion they've been a part of before (mainly protestants) by that site I noted earlier, and many other garbage sites like that. As such, it does not surprise me that they have gone astray, for they were not taught orthodoxy. I have such a sharp tone because there was once a point when I NEARLY CONVERTED TO ISLAM... I was so far into the web of Muhammedanism that I had nearly been crushed by heresy. I read the Qur'an, rejected Jesus' divinity, removed all my holy icons/images and spoke actively against the Catholic/Orthodox Church.

Of course, it was because I was ill0informed about the beautiful religion I was born into. Somewhere between the left-leaning media and the stories of "inquisitions" and the movie "Elizabeth" I found myself a virtual wreck.
I was ironically saved from Islam by a protestant at a debate camp. I remember saying that I felt called to become a priest yet I rejected the divinity of Jesus, the infallibility of scriptures and I wanted to read the Qur'an in church mass.

She, of course, had quite the counter-argument. She used words like "grace" and "justification", words I have never heard of before. I defended with petty arguments such as "man can be saved by his own deeds, without grace". After a little thinking, I bought a copy of the Catechism of the church I felt alien to and began to read. Soon, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism all seemed to be put aside for my quest for the true faith of the one Church. I had problems dealing with protestant or catholic, though I eventually pulled through.

I find this story very moving and divinely guided, as I remember meeting the bishop of my diocese long ago about wanting to become a priest.
I asked a question regarding Islam and was told that I should learn more about my own faith first. This was before that fateful summer at debate camp. Also, I remember being in the squires and one of the counsellors said "well, it is great that you have the vocation to the priesthood, but you should know, the devil has many snares and he will try to pull you away". At the time I set his comment aside as superstition, though I now see the importance it carried. Ever since then, I never lost sight of the true faith.

Rejoice brothers and sisters in Christ!
He is risen!
Amen!
-Peace and goodwill,
Justin,sinner

HEY!! Not ALL "Non-Chalcedonianism" is bad! :p

Let's not turn this into a Dioscoros/Flavian deathmatch...my Dioscoros will beat up your Flavian anytime, anywhere.

Well, Father Seraphim and Catholic_Servant86, we certainly will not come to any agreement on this issue.

I will agree with Rabbi Barry Altman, Rabbi Israel Barszak, and others, who are true experts on this subject and have been our community teachers for the last two years.

Nothing personal, but they are scholars and all of them would disagree with your interpretation of the facts.

Clearly, where Judaism and Islam are most united is in our common rejection of the belief in incarnate deity.

Certainly, we share common practices, such as similar dietary laws, laws of divorce, strict monotheism, charity, and many other similar beliefs and practices, but our common rejection of incarnate gods sets us apart--unequivocally--from other faiths, while at the same time uniting us in the faith of Ibrahim.

Jehovah's Witnesses? Rabbis Altman and Barszak would not appreciate the comparison!

The Jews of Syria and Iraq?

Unfortunately, like the Jews of Spain and Ethiopia, they were cruelly expelled from the land of their birth.

Struggle? Believe me, I love the "struggle," as long as we remain gentlemen. Maybe I enjoy the struggle too much. On the other hand, when you find yourself engaged in debate with a person seriously struggling with his or her faith, the godly thing to do is disengage. I learned this lesson while attending Catholic parochial school.

Many Christians--it seems to me--are struggling with their faith and the humane thing to do is to encourage them to become strong in their Christian faith.


Salaam,

Abdur

[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Now now, Mor Ephrem, I assure you that I have no desire to war against non-chalcedonians, that has been done enough and has been too futile. In fact, I should point out that Islam had such a large success in non-chalcedonian states in part because the natives thought that Islamic culture and thought would treat them better than the imperialist Byzantine government. My non-chalcedonian brethren hold a place of extremely high esteem and love in my heart and my mind. espeacially the copts with all the trouble they've been through over the ages. So I assure you, I have no desire to do anything that would harm any true Christians. Thank you
-Justin

Dear Catholicos,

As you know, Flavian was "counted out" in that match centuries ago . . .

One way to "punch up" a theological discussion, eh?

Alex

Dear Abdur,

You are right, of course, on your point regarding the Incarnation.

But I cannot help but see a closeness of Islam to Christianity in a number of points, including the fact that some Islamic scholars have come to the philosophical conclusion that the best form of union between God and man would be Incarnation.

Muslims and Christians often pray at the same Shrines, festivals in Egypt and Ethiopia are celebrated by them both.

The Shrine of St Basil Ostroshky of Chornohora is honoured by Muslims (who do experience miracles of healing there - could it be that St Basil doesn't discriminate against God's children? ).

Mohammed, it should be remembered, defended the Virginity of the Mother of Jesus very strenuously.

He was, for a certainty, in direct communication with the Ethiopian Miaphysites or Oriental Orthodox Church that protected him and with whom he developed a cordial relationship, even warning his followers to leave that Church alone.

The Arian heresy was, by his time, defunct as well.

There are studies by Catholic scholars in this field about Muhammad and Islam and they carry on a constructive dialogue with Islam.

And, FYI, how is it that some of us on this thread are criticizing Islam and the Muslims while, on yet another, we defend the Palestinians and, implicitly, their fight with Israel etc.

Isn't that a bit of a contradiction? Just wondering . . .

I, for one, refuse to be part of any more sniping at Abdur and Islam.

It is up to the Moderator to judge this, but I'm outta this thread.

Alex

Dear Professor,

Thank you, but I don't mind the "snipes," because these fellows are absolutely sincere. And, I am--to a certain degree--a product of the Catholic educational system, as I must assume, are many forum members.
If these chaps didn't come to the defense of their faith, I would be disappointed.

Truthfully, just as Catholics believe their faith is superior to all other faiths, so do Muslims, and I am no different in that regard, even though my beliefs are quite eclectic.

Actually, there exists an Islamic world outside of fundamentalism, terrorism, general literature, and the media that is quite different from what the majority of our forum members truly believe is clearly definitive of Islam. So, I do not blame them when they take positions on Islam that are onesided and too global to be accurate or descriptive of reality. But they are doing the best they can with the information at hand. And, Allah knows, I have a lot to learn about Christianity.

My experience here is both delightful and a replication of my experiece in Catholic parochial school. There is a Slavic Muslim proverb: " Allah delights in putting our faithfulness to the test."

Salaam,

Abdur

[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Dear Dr. Abdur,

Who blessed me to be a professor?

Well, you are a very good sport then.

And as for more snipes, you don't have to ask some of the posters here twice when it comes to that . . .

A question - how does one become a saint in Islam? I don't mean a martyr . I mean a saint.

Alex

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
[QB]Dear Dr. Abdur,

"Who blessed me to be a professor? "

Your DNA.

"A question - how does one become a saint in Islam? I don't mean a martyr . I mean a saint."

How?

You hire yourself a Madison Avenue publicist who is a pathological liar with a very vivid imagination!

Seriously...it all boils down to--ouch!--the will of the people, since all Muslim saints--as far as I know--are local saints.

In Islam, I guess one could say, all sainthood is local!

Well, then there is the Shi'a....


Salaam,

Abdur

Dr. Abdur?

I no longer live in Miami. I stopped practicing medicine without a license years ago....just kidding!

[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Since I'm embroiled in a debate elsewhere in cyberspace on this very subject, I can say that my defense of the Palestinians stems from my own understanding of the history of Israel. I have not once brought religion into it, myself, and have even succeeded in keeping it out of the debate, which, ironically, is with an atheist who supports Zionism (I still don't understand how, but, hey, to each his own). I'm not going to go so far as to say that religion has no place in the conflict, which it most assuredly does, but has nothing to do with my defense of Palestine claims on their land.

God bless,
mikey.

The Islam you will not see on CNN.

Catholic Revival in Kosovo?


THE ONLY ONES WITHOUT MISSIONARIES
By Stephen Schwartz
(This is the third and last of a series of front-line reports from the Balkans.)

They came in thousands, in crowds and in single file, over the mountains, through forests and across rivers. Some were wounded and covered with blood. Some were grieving the loss of relatives killed by Serbian terrorists or were silent with worry over kidnapped menfolk. Some were so old they had seen, or experienced, such expulsions at least once, and sometimes more, in their lives.
They were Albanians from Kosovo, on the move during the recent war. Muslims and Catholics (the latter typically ignored by global media), ordinary believers and mystics, they trudged through the snow to what they believed would be safety. If not real security, at least they would find a temporary haven, far from burning houses and holy places, bullets, and bombs.

Their numbers reached nearly a million as they filled up camps in the muddy fields of northern Albania, Macedonia, and Montenegro. Alongside the Albanians, Slavic Muslims from the south Serbian region of Sandzhak, connecting Bosnia and Kosovo, fled to Sarajevo.

Settled in the camps, they sought medical help from volunteer teams assembled by Doctors Without Borders and similar groups. Truckloads of clothing and toys, giant containers of food, tents and blankets were shipped to alleviate misery. Families registered the names of missing members and listened, as communications were delivered. Once the tents were up, recruiters from the Kosova Liberation Army began circulating, collecting the names of those willing to undergo training for a trip back home. Media stars showed up for brief visits.

For refugees huddled across the borders from Kosovo, however, there was little in spiritual relief. Catholic Charities concentrated on getting through obstacles to assist and relocating families, and Islamic relief groups worked to improve medical aid. But ordinary priests who would have said Mass for Catholics (at least 15 percent of the Kosovar population), were largely absent, as were village imams and Bektashi (Shia -Sufi Muslim) babas.

Nevertheless, the camps saw a new feature of life in the post-Communist world: Protestant and Islamic-sectarian missionaries.
Missionaries from abroad are nothing new to Albania; the new mosque in Kukes and several others had been built with money supplied by Muslim fundamentalists in Saudi Arabia.

Although the Albanian form of Islam is so tolerant that adherents are stigmatized as non-believers, the Albanians were glad to have the new mosques.

But "converting" ordinary Albanian Muslims and Catholics into sectarian fanatics is no minor challenge.

Albanians of five denominations -- Sunni Muslims, Bektashi mystics, Catholics, Orthodox Christians, and Jews -- lived in harmony, including frequent intermarriage, over half a millennium. For them, religious distinctions are non-existent, for as the Albanian patriot Pashko Vasa put it, and as every Albanian today proudly emphasizes, "the religion of the Albanian is Albanianism."

A media expert in Sarajevo, Drazena Peranic, a Croatian Catholic woman married to a Bosnian Muslim, might have been expected to consider religious distinctions within a family to be secondary. But even she expressed amazement at the open-minded attitude of her Albanian colleagues. One editor, she noted, a Muslim married to a Christian Orthodox woman, was in Italy when his wife gave birth to twins. The couple had the children baptized as Catholics in the nearest parish. "I was amazed," Ms. Peranic said, "because even in Bosnia, with our tradition of intermarriage, I had never encountered such a relaxed attitude about religious loyalty. My colleague was surprised at my surprise. He said, 'what should we have done, left the children unbaptized? What counts is God, not the shape of the building where he is worshiped or the costume of the priest.'"

Foreign missionaries have assumed that 50 years of Communism and, in Kosovo, 10 years of Serbian terror had left people open to abandoning their traditional faith. Evangelical Christians from a group called Professionals International have proven assiduous, even offensive, in their recruitment.

After a Jewish service in the synagogue of Sarajevo, two young men who were Americans seated themselves at the communal table for the sabbath dinner, which is free and open to all in the Bosnian city. Their admission that they were Evangelicals rather than Jews was met with little reaction. But when a member of the Jewish congregation commented on the common origin of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, in the worship of a single God, they reacted vehemently.

"Allah as the Muslims say is not the same as the God we Christians and Jews worship," Joe Horning, who comes from Chicago, said. "Muslims worship the pagan moon god." This statement was accompanied by insults directed against the Muslim prophet Muhammad. Horning did not see anything inappropriate in declaring such sentiments in a city, Sarajevo, where Jews and Muslims prize their closeness to one another, and where their supporter is Cardinal Vinko Puljic, the archbishop of Sarajevo.

Asked if he would repeat such arguments to Muslims in the streets of the city, Horning said that he had circulated through the nearby refugee camp of Rakovica, attacking Islam and calling the Albanians to become Evangelicals. A visit to Rakovica produced evidence of the impact of such preaching.

Naim Berisha, a Muslim Albanian from Prishtine in Kosovo, who made it to Bosnia with his family, commented, "We are what we are, but everybody wants a part of us -- the Christians say we must go back to our Christian past, the Muslims say we must join their kind of Islam. If we were in Prishtine and someone came to try to change us, we would be angry, but this is not our country and we need help."

Evangelicals do offer help, with strings attached. According to Osman Hamdi, another Rakovica refugee and a former Prishtine resident, whose 3-year-old son wears a pacemaker to control a congenital heart defect, the missionaries offered to take him and his family to the U.S. for special treatment, if the family would join the Protestant sect. The offer was refused.
Muslim sectarians in the camps who come to the camps from elsewhere are seldom better in their approach.

Representatives of the Ahmadiyya, an extremist Islamic movement based in Pakistan that seems to concentrate on enlisting young children and turning them into preachers, also approached Osman Hamdi with an offer of help for his son. But, as with the Evangelicals, the Ahmadis vanished from the scene when he rejected their interpretation of Islam.
"The Ahmadiyya came with copies of the Islamic holy texts in Albanian, plus pamphlets promoting their leaders, and especially their hatred of the West," said Berisha. "We kept the holy texts, as it is proper to do, and threw the pamphlets away. We told them, 'we are already Muslims, but this is not for us.'"

Tensions between rival missionary groups have flared up in the region.

The Ahmadiyya have been threatened by members of Ahl as-Sunna wa'al Jama'at, who are also active in Bosnia.

The only religious group with potential for gaining new members in Kosovo, the Catholic Church, is engaged in no missionary activities.

Rather, in the spirit of Mother Teresa, an Albanian from Macedonia whose father was murdered by Serb terrorists, Albanian Catholics have concentrated on supporting the national struggle for survival and maintaining a civil relationship between Catholics, Sunni Muslims, and Bektashi, similar to that in Sarajevo (there are almost no Albanian Orthodox believers in Kosovo.)


Every Kosovar Albanian is aware that the "national revival" of the 19th century was lead by Catholic priests and Bektashi mystics,( Sufi Muslims ) and that Catholic intellectuals and political leaders were the firmest in resisting previous Serbian aggression against the Albanians. In addition, Catholic believers suffered attacks from Serb extremists during the recent war, including the machine-gunning of a Catholic church as parishioners were leaving Mass and the torture of an Albanian Catholic priest forced by Serbian terrorists to eat a candle.
Much of the education of Kosovar and other Albanians about their Catholic heritage is a consequence of the work undertaken in Santa Clara and San Francisco, over twenty years, by the late Gjon Sinishta, the sacristan at St. Ignatius Church and founder of the Daniel Dajani, S.J., Albanian Catholic Institute at the University of San Francisco. Mr. Sinishta, who was truly the "Albanian Solzhenitsyn," made the preservation and transmission of the Albanian Catholic religious and cultural legacy the basis of his whole existence.

Mr. Sinishta's work is beginning to bear fruit. A book on his life, Te Njohim Gjon Sinishten, recently published in Albania by the Catholic scholar Matish Shestani, has become a best-seller. A copy of the book, which includes patriotic verses by Albanian Catholic clergy, was passed from hand to hand in the Rakovica camp.

Ray Frost, successor to Mr. Sinishta as sacristan at St. Ignatius and as administrator of the Albanian Catholic Institute, cautions against triumphalism in such a situation. "Gjon favored reconciliation between believers, and especially after the horrors of the recent war, he would have worked hard to minimize discord." But Mr. Frost expressed enthusiasm that Mr. Sinishta's efforts in defense of Catholic civilization have found an echo, however obscure, among the Kosovars, for whom Mother Teresa, above all, is a positive spiritual and personal model.

[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Dear Mikey,

Actually, the atheist defending Zionism issue is something I've come across as well.

As one Tel Aviv Professor said at a lecture I attended years ago, "Even the Jewish atheist knows what the God he doesn't believe in expects him to do!"

Alex

I don't think that Islam is a heresy, we christians say that a heresy is something that came from the christian religion (monophisitism, nestorianism, protestantism, mormonism). I know that Islam gad a lot of christian influence, but it didn't originated in a christian background.

I don't think that Muhammad (peace be upon him!) was a true prophet, but he was a great leader and the unification of the Arab pagan tribes worked incredibly, because of Muhammad's labour. I admire his idealistic view of the "unified religion", a religion for everyone, christians, jews and pagans.
Unfortunately his knowledge about christianity was scarce and came from herethics (Muhammad didn't read the true gospel, he read apocriphal texts, used by mystics, gnostics and herethic sects). He borrowed some ideas from the herethics, like those who rejected the crucifiction. The Qur'an states that Jesus didn't die and that Simon of Cirene took his place in the cross (a docetist thought).

Bosniacs and Albanian muslim religion is a mixture of Islam and christianity (they have "priests" and other christian vocabulary)

Dear Remie,

Yes, the issue of cultural and religious borrowing between religions is fascinating.

The Mahayana Buddhists in China more than likely borrowed much from the Assyrian Church in Tibet that, in the 9th century during the T'ang dynasty, had two Archbishops and twenty bishops before it was destroyed later on.

A Russian theologian did a study that I almost obtained a copy of that compared Orthodox practices with those in current Tibetan Buddhism to show points of comparison and similarity.

The Ethiopian Church certainly borrowed from Islamic practices, including its honour for Alexander the Great as a prophet.

Alex