www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Is Islam a heresy?

Abdur,

You are right about the appreciation for Islam in America after 9/11. But I would say it has more to do with the *good* media attention Islam got as opposed to it being bad media attention. Could one find any mainstrean media source that didn't remind us for the tenth million time what *true* Islam was? On the other hand when was the last time the mainstream media reminded us what *true* Catholicism was?

Another thing Islam shows it's self a much better - *stud* - in the "manly" aspects of religion. And Muslims are certain of themselves as Muslims. Where as Catholics all to often are uncertain of themselves as Catholics - weak-kneed under discussion.

Well, Americans are definitely like cats: They are real curiosity seekers and that seems to apply to religion.
Even if Americans claim a specific religious affiliation, most seem to practice a generic form of religion/spirituality: God, country, and free enterprise.

You probably are right about some Muslim converts being attracted to Islam due to its militant and self-assured image. Islam is definitely a macho faith! And I believe many contemporary Americans (and others) are amazed--even dumbfounded--by the fact that believers would have such a strong commitment to their faith, that they would actually sacrifice their lives for it.

Americans--especially the "Dress for Success/Brand Name" generation--breakout in a cold sweat if they are asked to just sacrifice a meal. Narcissism's elite is clueless to what motivates a devotee to sacrifice his or her life for a higher cause.

Anyway:

"Macho macho man, I want to be a Musselmani man!"

---all together now!

"Macho macho man, I want to be a Musselmani man!"

That seems to be the enchanting refrain of some.

Abdur

Europe's Muslims worry bishops
By JOHN L. ALLEN JR.

NCR Staff

Rome

Catholics passing through Rome naturally gravitate toward St. Peter's square. In the shadow of the massive Bernini columns, many ruminate about where the church might be heading in the new millennium about to dawn.

If Catholics want to see the future, however, they might do better to visit Rome's main bus terminal instead.

There, as in other spots where one can peel back the layers of a city and see below the tourists and the local elites, travelers sometimes feel more like they're in Istanbul or Cairo than on the continent. Many signs are in Turkish or Arabic, fast food vendors sell couscous and hummus, and many of the women wear veils.

Such scenes convey a truth with vast significance for the next century: Under the impact of three decades of north-south immigration, Europe today is where Islam meets the First World.
That point has been much in the air at the Oct. 1-23 European synod, where the question of how the Catholic church here ought to position itself in the face of new diversity has been discussed in several interventions.
Some speakers have warned of an Islamic conquest of Europe.

"The 'dominion' has already begun with the 'petro-dollars,' used not to create work in the poor North African or Middle Eastern countries, but to build mosques and cultural centers in Christian countries with Islamic immigration, including Rome, the center of Christianity," said Archbishop Giuseppe Bernardini, a 72 year-old Italian who heads the Izmir archdiocese in Turkey.
Bernardini said he has lived in predominantly Muslim nations for 42 years. His comments came in a written intervention submitted to the synod

Oct. 13.

Bernardini was not the only one to sound an alarm. "History teaches us that peaceful cohabitation between Islam and Christianity is precarious," said Alain Besan�on, a member of the Institut de France and a synod participant. He warned that "a church uncertain of its faith is endangered by conversion to Islam."
Besan�on called on the church to educate its members to resist Islamic encroachment.

In contrast, Belgian Cardinal Godfried Danneels -- while acknowledging the challenge of dialogue with fundamentalist forms of Islam -- challenged Catholicism to support the positive elements of the Islamic faith. "We have much to learn," Danneels said, such as "the transcendence of God, prayer and fasting, and the impact of religion on social life."

Archbishop Karl Lehmann of Germany told journalists that Christians should better understand the internal dynamics of Islam in Europe before passing judgment. Fundamentalism is merely one element, Lehmann said; there are also moderates who would welcome Christian cooperation.

The contrast among the four points of view suggests the basic choice facing church leaders: whether to embrace Europe's new pluralism or to fortify the church against it.

"There is a desire among many Muslims in Europe to work out a form of Islam that is unique," said Jesuit Fr. Tom Michel, who runs the secretariat of interreligious dialogue for the Jesuit order worldwide. "The question is whether we'll meet them halfway."

The Vatican's official 1999 count puts the number of Catholics in the world at just over 1 billion. While estimates vary, most experts peg the total number of Muslims at around the 1 billion mark as well.

Since the 1970s, waves of Muslim immigration from North Africa and the Middle East have transformed the demographics of Europe. Because their families tend to have birth rates higher than the European average -- parts of Northern Europe would actually be de-populating were it not for immigration -- the Islamic presence in Europe has risen dramatically.

According to U.N. statistics, the Islamic population grew by more than 100 percent in Europe from 1989 to 1998, to 14 million, representing approximately 2 percent of the population. (Over the same period, the Muslim population in the United States grew by 25 percent to 4.9 million.)

The proof of what's happening is on the streets. Sections of Paris look and sound more like the West Bank than the Left Bank, and Marseilles is poised to become the first European city with a non-European majority. Some estimates hold that within 25 years, one in four residents of France will practice Islam.

A resident who knows the scene in Rome says that in many of the city's famous Italian restaurants -- long considered carriers of Roman culture -- the cooking is often done by Egyptians.

Advocates of pluralism welcome the new diversity. Across the continent, however, there is also a darker view, one that sees foreigners as competitors for jobs, for social services and -- perhaps most of all -- for cultural ascendancy.

The European mood can be glimpsed from the Oct. 3 national elections in Austria, where the far-right Freedom Party captured almost 30 percent of the vote, by far the best showing yet for an extremist party in a European election. The party ran on an anti-immigrant platform, even resurrecting a term for "over-foreignization" that had been taboo in the German-speaking world because of its association with Nazi racial policies.

"We've got the Poles who concentrate on car theft. We've got the former Yugoslavs who are burglary experts. We've got the Turks who are superbly organized in the heroin trade. And we've got the Russians who are experts in blackmail and mugging," said Jorg Haider, the outspoken leader of the Freedom Party in a speech leading up to the election.
Haider has proposed segregating Austrian schoolchildren from foreigners and limiting some social benefits to ethnic Austrians.

Papal olive branch

At the synod, the talk has been nowhere near this blunt. Differences over Islam for participants here have been less about matters of substance than mood. Some accent the threat posed by Islam's growth, while others stress the need to acknowledge its diversity. A welcoming reaction, they say, could help shape the future direction of Islam in Europe.

The anxiety over Islam came into sharp focus at the synod through Bernardini and Besan�on's calls to arms.

"How can we ignore in all this a program of expansion and re-conquest?" Bernardini asked. He urged the pope to call a special synod or symposium on immigration, with special focus on the problem of Islam. The event should include the Reformed and Orthodox churches, Bernardini said.

Bernardini said that while it was necessary to distinguish between "the fanatic and violent minority" and the "peaceful and honest" majority in Islam, he believed even peaceful Moslems would, without hesitation, "follow orders given in the name of Allah."

Bernardini said a Moslem leader once told him: "Thanks to your democratic laws, we will invade you. Thanks to our religious laws, we will dominate you."

There are between 4 million and 5 million Muslims in France today, Besan�on said, roughly the same as the number of practicing Catholics (the total population of France is 58 million). Both the numbers Besan�on uses and the comparison he draws, however, are disputed.
He offered several examples, including the Nestorians, the Monophysites of Syria and Egypt, the Donatists of the Magreb, and the Spanish Aryans.

All are Christian communities in the Mediterranean basin that broke away from the church of Rome in the first millennium, most of whose members over time adopted Islam.

Most provocatively, Besan�on said Catholics must stop using "faulty expressions" such as "the three revealed religions," "the three religions of Abraham" and "the three religions of the Book" to refer to Islam, Christianity and Judaism. The suggestion was that these terms implied a false equivalence between Christianity and Islam.

This last point was viewed by some as an especially remarkable statement, given that the pope himself has used the language of Christians and Muslims as "brothers in Abraham" at least five times -- in a homily in Ankara, Turkey, in 1979; in a radio address to the peoples of Asia in 1981; in an address to Muslim workers in Mainz, Germany in 1980; in an address to a Rome colloquium in 1985; and in a homily in Gambia in 1992.

Excerpts of the pope's talks appear in Recognize the Spiritual Bonds which Unite Us: 16 years of Christian-Muslim Dialogue, a 1994 publication of the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue.

"As I have often said in other meetings with Muslims, your God and ours is one and the same, and we are brothers and sisters in the faith of Abraham," the pope said in Rome in 1985.

At a synod news conference, a special representative appointed by the pope, Archbishop J�zef Miroslaw Zycinski of Lublin, Poland, seemed to put some distance between Besan�on and the bishops. Besan�on was "expressing his personal opinion," Zycinski said, and "we cannot censor him."

Yet Zycinski clearly shared some of Besan�on's concern. "If Islam evolves in the direction of greater religious openness, then there is the possibility of dialogue," Zycinski said. "But if a fundamentalist version dominates in which religion is mixed with politics, then optimism will not be justified."

One irony is that this sense of a looming conflict comes under a papacy that has dedicated enormous energies to opening contacts with Islam. John Paul II has met with Muslims more than 50 times, a number that, according to experts, surpasses the total number of encounters with all previous popes combined.

Interfaith observers say John Paul enjoys greater credibility across the Islamic world, in part because his opposition to the U.S.-led Gulf War and the sanctions in Iraq has demonstrated that the pontiff is no longer "the chaplain of NATO," as Pius XII had once been dubbed. If the pope does visit Iraq in December, in defiance of strong reservations expressed by the Clinton administration, it will be another significant confidence-building measure.

Threat exaggerated

Moreover, Catholics and Islamic nations have in recent years made common cause at United Nations-sponsored population conferences, opposing developed Western nations and many women's groups on issues such as birth control and abortion.
In the eyes of some, however, these acts of cooperation conceal a more fundamental tug-of-war for the religious balance of power, a contest that in coming years will be played out in Europe as well as Africa and North America.

Speakers at the synod have reflected this view. Bishop Klemens Pickel, responsible for Latin-rite Catholics in Russia, suggested that Catholics and Orthodox could make common cause in their resistance to the encroachments of Islam. "We both share the consciousness of being in a defensive position" against Islam, Pickel said.

Even Nigerian Cardinal Francis Arinze, head of the Vatican's agency on inter-religious dialogue, seemed to endorse the anxiety about Islam.

"Many lay faithful know too little about the Catholic faith," he said. "The risk when such Catholics meet other believers is therefore great."
Arinze called for training of more Catholic specialists on other religions, "especially Islam," focusing on "how to meet their followers" -- a line that some observers interpreted to mean, "how to resist their advances."

A Catholic specialist in dialogue with Muslims, however, told NCR that fears about Islam are often inflated.
For one thing, dramatic growth in the Islamic population does not change the fact that Muslims remain a significant cultural minority. They are at most 2 percent of Europe's total population.

"The numbers get exaggerated by everyone," said Jesuit Fr. Tom Michel, head of the secretariat for inter-religious affairs for the Jesuit order. "Politicians want to make the numbers seem larger because it generates fear they can exploit," he said. "On the Islamic side, there's a tendency to exaggerate as a kind of boast."

Moreover, Michel said that comparisons such as Besan�on's -- that stack the total number of Moslems against the number of practicing Catholics -- are a classic case of mixing apples and oranges.

"Recent research shows that when Muslims enter heavily secularized European societies, they do not practice in greater percentages than do Christians," Michel said.
While there are difficulties in defining what it means for a Moslem to practice the faith -- whether one considers Friday prayer, taking part in the Ramadan fast, or performing the five daily prayers obligatory under Islamic law -- Michel said the general point is that European Muslims seem no more cohesive or zealous than European Catholics.

A better comparison would stack the total number of baptized Catholics against the total number of Muslims, with a result that would seem far less menacing, Michel said.
Michel acknowledged that some Muslim leaders have called for an aggressive effort to spread Islam in Europe to rescue the West from moral and spiritual decline. Yet there is little evidence this is happening.
"Some Europeans are becoming Muslims, but it also works the other way -- some Muslims are becoming Christian," Michel said. Some estimates, for example, are that at least 10 percent of the people preparing for adult baptism in France come from a Muslim background.

Indeed, many experts on religious movements say that Europeans today are much more likely to convert to an aggressively evangelical group such as the Jehovah's Witnesses than to Islam. There are 32 Jehovah's Witnesses Kingdom Halls in Rome, for example, in contrast to one mosque.

Other church leaders say the notion of Islam as a unified force is more caricature than reality. At a session for German-speaking journalists at the synod, Lehmann stressed there is more internal pluralism within Islam than many Christians perceive.

In his diocese, Lehmann said, are five mosques that were under moderate leadership until the past year, when fundamentalist elements moved in. Now the moderates hope to build a sixth mosque and have turned to Lehmann for assistance.

Some Christians complain about the lack of religious freedom within Islamic societies, charging it is hypocritical for Muslims to demand fair treatment in the First World when their governments are unwilling to grant it at home.

Here, too, Michel said the picture is often distorted. "When people talk about the lack of religious freedom, they almost always mean Saudi Arabia, where you are forbidden to have priests," Michel said. "But go next door to Oman, where the Sultan has given permission to build four new parishes. Go to Dubai, which has the largest Christian church in the Middle East."

Some futurists expect that the Islamic presence in Europe will, in the long run, have a greater impact on Islam than on Europe. Raised to appreciate cultural values such as pluralism and democracy, a new generation of Muslim elites may push Islam in a more moderate direction worldwide.
Michel said this is a possible scenario.

Another is that xenophobia and hostility will push Muslims into a defensive position, exacerbating tensions between Islamic nations and the West.
National Catholic Reporter, October 22, 1999
Top of page
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New Horizons in Turkish-Greek Relations


Turkish-Greek relations entered a totally new phase in July 1999, a date which mark the beginning of political dialogue on bilateral issues between the two countries. For years after the "Kardak" crisis which brought Turkey and Greece to the brink of war over a deserted islet in the Eastern Aegean and almost immediately after the capture of �calan, chief of the PKK terrorist organization while leaving the Greek Embassy in Kenya where he had been provided safe heaven by the Greek authorities, such a development was definitely unexpected.


Back in June 1999, Turkish Foreign Minister �smail Cem and Greek Foreign Minister George Papandreou instructed their respective ministries to initiate a process of consultation and joint work on bilateral issues. In July 1999, Turkish and Greek joint committees started to hold talks in a spirit of cooperation and friendship, which yielded very positive results.


Nine agreements on promoting cooperation in several fields ranging from environment to combating terrorism have been concluded during the exchange of official visits by Foreign Ministers Cem and Papandreou in January and February 2000 -first of such in the last 40 years.


Rapprochement between the Turkish and Greek peoples after the devastating earthquakes each suffered in 1999 provided another stimulus to the intense diplomatic efforts for improvement of bilateral relations.


If the tragedy that the two countries survived had one positive aspect, it was the reaffirmation of human solidarity by neighboring Turkish and Greek peoples. In the wake of the earthquake disasters, they reached out to one another in a magnificent manner and proven that deep down they are friends, not enemies. On both shores of the Aegean, after decades of tensions, Greeks and Turks discovered that they care for each other much more than what was generally presumed.


Following the earthquakes, Turkey and Greece co-sponsored a joint resolution for the very first time in the history of the UN, that is one on the establishment of a "Standby Disaster Response Unit" and they have also instituted a political consultations mechanism.

The endorsement of Turkey's candidacy to the EU on 10 December Helsinki Summit was another manifestation of the progress they have achieved. In the context of consultations between the Political Directors of respective Foreign Ministries, they have established a joint mechanism concerning the work that is necessary in preparation for Turkey's membership to the EU.

Recent proof of improved relations between Turkey and Greece was Turkey's participation in NATO's Dynamic Mix 2000 exercise which took place in Greece between May 20-June 10. In the final phase of the exercise, a company of 150 Turkish marines landed on the beach at Kyparissia on the West coast of the Greek Peloponesian peninsula. During the course of the exercise, a squadron of Turkish F-16 fighters arrived at the Anhialos base in Central Greece, which likewise had never occurred before in the history of the two NATO countries after the Cyprus crisis of 1974.

It is expected that the improvement of bilateral relations between the two countries will significantly change the economic and political landscape of the entire region.

Rapprochement between Turkey and Greece appears to constitute a cornerstone for security in the Balkans and a guarantee for the security of investments. As the two countries leave the period of political conflicts and enter one of cooperation, huge economic opportunities will emerge for the both countries and the Balkans in general. Turkey shares six centuries of history with the rest of Balkan nations.

Its investments in the region stand at $ 1.2 billion and projected to exceed $ 1.5 billion by the end of the year. Turkey's trade with Greece totaled $ 700 million in 1999, while Chairman of the Turkish-Greek Business Council Mr. �ar�k Tara forwards an ambitious forecast of $ 5 billion in bilateral trade between the two countries by the year 2005.

Recent rapprochement between Turkey and Greece seems to receive very positive echoes from the international community. Turkish and Greek Foreign Ministers received "Statesman of the Year" award from the East-West Institute in New York on 2 May 2000 for their diplomatic efforts to bring a rapprochement between the two countries. They also met American Secretary of State Madeleine Albright.

Today, despite the rather recent rapprochement and huge boost of outpouring sympathy when destructive earthquakes struck both countries last year, the main issues of conflict, i.e. problems related to the Aegean and the violations of the rights of the Turkish Minority of Western Thrace by Greece, are still pending. Quick and mutually acceptable solutions to these questions are awaited.

Turkey, having the support of the public opinion as well as of the international community, is determined to widen the scope of cooperation and dialogue with Greece and dwell on the issues of conflict.
-------------------------------------

�

I don't see the point in that. It is not so good to have the present in mind (i.e. the holocaust) when you study the past. You can completely miss out on context. Like the empire in an episode of Star Wars, analogies of that sort can strike back. What about all the Canaanites that were “butchered” in the Old Testament? Besides in those days Jews had their fair share of slaughtering Christians, Christians their share of Jews and Muslims their fair share of both.

According to the eminent scholar E.A.W. Budge, who studied and translated many documents from this period, the Jewish king Dhu Nuwas (called Finhas in Ethiopian tradition) in Nagran, South Arabia, “hated Christians…[he] slew men, women and children—burned their houses and crops. Christian virgins were raped, tortured and burnt with fire.”

The heroic Ethiopian Emperor at the time, Saint Kaleb (recognized as a saint in the Eastern and Roman churches), was requested by both Alexandrian Patriarch Timothy and the Byzantine Emperor Justin I to intervene on behalf of the Christians. Not caring for any Chalcedon/ non-Chalcedon split, Emperor Kaleb responded and invaded South Arabia and saved the Christians. He placed a Christian in power, built Churches and ensured their safety with 10,000 Ethiopian Christian troops that he left in Nagran. The great saint of the Ethiopian Church, Yared, who is the author of the Ethiopian Hymnary wrote a hymn on the Nagran Martyrs in Metshaf Deguwa:

Thou art called the blood of paradise (garden) of thine martyrs,
Their blood flooded as water…
Peace be unto three, O great land of Nagran,
Whose stars are bright, whose trees are joyful,
Whose clergy are scholars, whose deacons are messengers and
Whose faithful are members of the holy Christian Church.

You also refer to Islam as the “greatest oppressor” of Orthodoxy. Christians oppress Muslims (Kosovo), Muslims oppress Christians (Egypt; Turkey), Jews oppress Muslims and Christians (Israel), and Christians oppress Jews (Eastern Europe). I don't think anyone can do a whole lot of finger pointing without looking hypocritical and self-righteous.


Alex,

Another place I also read you making the remark that Ethiopian Muslims and Christians attend the same gatherings. I would not read too much into that. Muslims may attend some of our celebrations but we never attend any of theirs. Just as I suppose in Egypt, some of the Copts may attend Muslim festivals while none of the Muslims attend the Christian celebrations. It probably comes down to who is the dominant one in the area. Also, if there is any connection between Muhammad (PBUH) and any current of Christianity I would look at Bilal, the Ethiopian who was very close to him. Bilal was the first one to call the Muslim faithful to prayer and I have heard an argument by one researcher to the effect that Bilal, was a Christian and influenced the prophet.

Not in Ethiopia. We practice circumcision of boys eight days after birth. Observe clean and unclean meat as well as observe two Sabbaths; the Sabbath on Saturday while Sunday is called “The Lords Sabbath.” No church is consecrated until there is an Ark of the Covenant inside; otherwise it is just a building. In fact the internal structure of our church is Hebraic and the altar which the holy Eucharist is prepared on is the Ark. There is a dynamic transitional relation between All-Holy Virgin Mary and the Ark. We equally recognize and refer to both old and new testaments even as only the Gospel (Wengel) is venerated during Mass.

I don't see why. If anyone knew Christianity they would know that Gods highest expression of love was his own crucifixion and that: “By this we know love, because he laid down his life for us. AND WE OUGHT to lay down our life for the brethren (I John 3: 16).”




That is all fine but about Jesus ours says: “"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,' says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty' (Revelation 1: 8)”

I need you to clear something up. Jesus definitely said that he was the Son of God. If you acknowledge him as a prophet then you have to come to terms with statements that he made. In Al-Islam, is it possible for a prophet to be a liar? If so do you guys believe that Jesus was a liar? Let me say in advance that if you claim that Christ is a liar then we can not call Islam a heresy, but there is something else we can call it—blasphemous. Of course that is only in the context of theology; no political, social, or economic statement is implied.
Finally, “like the Jews of Spain and Ethiopia, they were cruelly expelled from the land of their birth.” (?) Ethiopian Jews were not expelled insomuch as they were “exodused” by Israel.

God be with you all.

Aklie Semaet

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aklie Semaet:
[QB]


That is all fine but about Jesus ours says: “"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,' says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty' (Revelation 1: 8)”

"I need you to clear something up. Jesus definitely said that he was the Son of God. If you acknowledge him as a prophet then you have to come to terms with statements that he made. In Al-Islam, is it possible for a prophet to be a liar? If so do you guys believe that Jesus was a liar? Let me say in advance that if you claim that Christ is a liar then we can not call Islam a heresy, but there is something else we can call it—blasphemous."

If Islam's interpretation of the mission and life of Prophet Jesus--peace be upon him-- was only predicated on what is contained in the canonical Christian scriptures, then Christians would have every right to believe that Muslims are nothing more than blasphemers.

However, Islam has been heavily influenced by the so-called Gnostic Christian scriptures, which write an icon of the Christ that can--and does--vary quite significantly from the canonical Christian scriptures.

It is accurate to say that our 'Gospel' tradition of the life of Christ is not predicated on the canonical New Testament, but finds its source within the holy traditions of the Gnostic Christians of Egypt and Arabia and Mikra Asia.

Salaam,

Abdur

Dear Abdur,

Thank you for your clarification. I must say however that it still begs the question. What exactly is the mainstream or predominant view in Al-Islam with regard to the Gospels? Do Muslim scholars think that they are fabricated? Do they think that they are tampered with? Do they think that if not Jesus then one of the Apostles was a liar? Please clarify this.

Selam

Aklie Semaet

Dear Aklie,

I would venture to say that the scholars and the populace by large in the Middle East have one word for the canonical Gospels that succinctly expresses their view of it, "muhar'raf".

The alleged corrupting of the canonical Jewish and Christian scripures are one of the reasons why, in the Islamic view, Jews and Christians lost their divine mandate and why God brought down his final revelation, concluding it with the seal of the prophets, Muhammad.

As Abdur correctly points out, the Muslims look favorably on the Gnostic "Christian" texts, which contradict the canonical Scriptures in many ways, such as in denying the bodily Crucifixion. They would definitely be seen as more credible than the canonical books.

In IC XC
Samer

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SamB:
[QB]Dear Aklie,

".... denying the bodily Crucifixion."


"No one can die for my sins, but I must die to my sins."


--Bosnian Muslim proverb.

Abdur

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Dear Friends,

Yes, Aklie's question is an important one.

The Gnostic "Christian" texts never made any pretense to be "Christian" at all.

In fact, Gnosticism simply attempted to promote its own philosophy (much of it that would also be opposed to orthodox Islam) under the "cover" of Christian titles to try and convert Christians to their cause.

There certainly is a Christian Gnosis, such as that that was practiced by the Coptic Christian Therapeutae in Upper Egypt.

But if one examines their Liturgy of St Dionysius the Areopagite (that can be found on-line), one sees that their theology is totally Orthodox Christian.

With respect to Jesus and the Gospels, I have read in Islamic texts that Islamic philosophers have affirmed generally that incarnation would be the BEST way for God to unite with man. Al-Hallaj came close to this when he taught that man was an incarnation of God.

In addition, there have been Islamic teachers who have promoted acceptance of the historical Crucifixion of Jesus within Islam, as mentioned by Fulton Sheen and others.

Islam is not inflexible on its interpretation of the Person of Jesus, fundamentalism notwithstanding.

I personally believe that the real Identity of Jesus will be revealed to Muslims directly through their existing relationship to Him.

Alex

Abdur,

Very well put. Proverbs after all are the best modicum for expressing things clearly.

Aside from the horror Islam sees in God allowing one of the prophets to expire in such a manner, what you post illustrates another classical objection to the doctrine of the Redemption. That is why as I remember Robert Sweiss saying, amongst the many names of God in the Koran, there is no "mukhal'lis", or "savior, redeemer, etc."

In IC XC
Samer

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:


I have read in Islamic texts that Islamic philosophers have affirmed generally that incarnation would be the BEST way for God to unite with man. Al-Hallaj came close to this when he taught that man was an incarnation of God.

In addition, there have been Islamic teachers who have promoted acceptance of the historical Crucifixion of Jesus within Islam, as mentioned by Fulton Sheen and others.

Islam is not inflexible on its interpretation of the Person of Jesus, fundamentalism notwithstanding.
---------------------------------------

Interesting points, Alex.

I just want to remind readers that these theological positions would be adhered to by very few Muslims--unless they could be accepted metaphorically or mystically as opposed to literally--since the concept of incarnate gods is absolutely foreign to the Quran and the Hadiths, etc.

The worship of a sentient being--man or animal --is considered idolatry and an abomination to the vast majority of Islamic scholars and devotees, even by most mystical Sufis.

Those who believe that God would manifest Himself through and in a chosen one would reject the belief in a Divine Person who is --in essence --a god-man in the Christian sense.

For Muslim scholars, the concept of the transcendence of God cannot be compromised or violated, nor may any belief that borders on idolatry become a core belief of Islam.

Abdur

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur - Islam must compromise this view in the sense that, if God cannot become incarnate, then God's transcendance is indeed compromised for His transcendance is confined to the supernatural; not allowing Him to break into the natural, physical world.

In Christ,
ALity

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Ality ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ality:
[QB]

Abdur - Islam must compromise this view in the sense that, if God cannot become incarnate, then God's transcendance is indeed compromised for His transcendance is confined to the supernatural; not allowing Him to break into the natural, physical world.

In Christ,
ALity

I disagree, since the Transcendent One is the Creator and Sustainer of the the cosmos, both physical and spiritual.

That which creates and sustains cannot be alienated from what It brought into being; neither can the
Transcendent One be limited to or contained by Its own creation, especially in the form of a sentient being.

Salaam,

Abdur

Abdur,

Either I'm missing something or you fail to really grasp Christian theology on the incarnation of Christ?

I fail to see your logic on "conatianing" or not "containing" the Transcendent One.

First of all God is not subject to our natural laws. He is it's author yes, but not it's product.

Of course all Christian belief regarding the Logos - the Incarnated Word, is an act subject in the end totally to faith. But I believe, even given that, by reason man can come to appreciate *This* by the logic of theological study.

I'm not entirely certain on how one should best approach this in any theological discussion, but with my best uneducated guess, I will jump in and say that we should first begin with what Scripture calls God "emptying" Himself into what is the Logos. We then must look and understand how this Logos relates to the ever present Father and how that *love* from the two that is the one, known to us as the Holy Spirit, which the three were still, was then, is now - the *One* God. And how all of this means life to us.

It would be much to clever as far as I'm concerned to say that God can do whatever He wants, or by the same token to say that God can't be "contained". [Of course this is why "revelation" of God is so important to humanity.]

I agree with the Buddhist who proclaim divinity within each and everyone of us (humans - and all life forms). I don't think Thomas Aquinas would disagree with my rather simple statment here. But I would expound on that a little further - and this is where I really verge in diagreement with you - and say that I believe in that point in all creation in what I believe Thomas Merton refered to as "point verge". That would be that point in all creation in which lies that essences of God, the *first* from which all other accidental attributes cometh from.

This would suggest a point of *good* in rats, cockroaches, flees, mad dogs, the worst human, and even a point of good in Satan himself. -- INTERESTING. [Even your "sustain" theory would imply God holding some intimate relation with the Devil - no?]

But yes, I say that the empty factor is where the theological discussion of the Inacarnated Word must begin.