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Maximus,

Since the Christian belief is that the the universe and all that is created is created through the Logos-Word, then, according to you, Jesus the Logos created evil---as well as good. Can good and/or evil create themselves? If so, they are gods.

The Creator is not controlled or limited by Its creation, therefore, it is fallacious to assume that God's essence contains evil and the derivatives of evil.


......This is a fascinating subject. More later. Thank you for indulging me.

Salaam,

Abdur

Abdur,

You are right up to the point that you say the Logos Created evil (well as you see it according to Christian theology). The Logos created evil no more then the Logos created good.

Life comes from the Logos, that is in so far as the Logos divinity. The Logos humanity aside, the Logos giveth potential and life. Such as the sperm and egg that thus gives potentiality to the child developing - this act of potentiality is life.

So we now have life from the Logos, corporal and non-corporal beings. What accompanies these lifes are potentialities or degrees of potentialities subject to it's nature. It is from this gift of free will deriving from our higher degree of potentiality that gives rise to the potential for evil (and even good).

Now that we are at evil. Evil is not it's self a cause, it is not even it's self a source of poteniality (thus destroying all argument of it being a god), but rather it is an *act*. It has to be an act if God is good. For what can we Know of good, but the rightful disposition of "Godliness". Evil occurs when the act of *will* choses to live counter to "Godliness".

So good is actually God, one could say, or at least those acts that are in accordance with God's given harmony.

For any thing to be a god or a god per se (as we use the terms in this discussion) it must be able to cause. To cause potentiality and act. Neither good or bad can do this as they can only be discussed as either *act* or *attribute* not cause it's self.

In other words, God created evil, since, as scripture says of the Logos, "all things were made by him, and without him, was not any thing made that was made... ."

Even potentiality must exist in the mind of the Creator, or it cannot come into being. Potentiality cannot proceed from a vacuum or from itself.

If it could proceed independently, it would exist in an autonomous state; a state that would exist outside of the creative act and mind of God, which would mean that God is neither omniscient or omnipotent, or worse....sovereign.

Abdur

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

You are right except for your point in your first paragraph.

Yes God is in Himself Potentiality, act, being, essence, and cause. God is first, I, Christian theology would not dispute this. And know matter what proceedes from us, proceedes only from us because God gave us life... and so forth our potentiality we derive from that first potentiality which is God. But as it is wrong to say that our essence is the essence of God so it is wrong for us to suggest our potentiality is the potentiality of God. God is first, we are second, I suppose the machinary we create is third. But though the machinary we create has potentaility - to the extent that it is depended on our effort - it can not be said logicaly to posses the same potentiality that we humans posses. So I think logicaly - at least Aquinas would say so - that our potentaility can't be said to be that of God. So what I'm getting at I guess is that unlike God who is first and perfection, we are second and lack perfection - logicaly being that our being is depended on His being.

Aside from what kids our taught in Catholic grade school or high school for that matter. True and indepth Christian theology would hesitate to mention [things] that derive from the Creators "mind". For us such comprehension is far to limiting on understanding God, but yes I admit talk as such is frequent amongst us Christians to such a point that you have Bishops that will say things - in regard to 9/11 - like "God was shocked to see all those souls" - (after they died of course). The sort of grade school explanations that I don't like, but is helpful to many others try to grasp things I guess.

An Your use of Scripture above is of course subject to interpretation. You must remember that as a Muslim (well minus you as a Sufi) the reading of the Koran is along the lines of Protestant reading of the Bible. But! The same study or reading of Scripture does not apply as well to Orthodox or Catholic.

So my reading of that portion of Scripture you offered - *In Conjunction With The Teaching Of the Church (Bishops)* - and in conjunction with the tradition of our ancient and present theologians. --- No I do not concur with the conclusion of your assesment of that portion of Scripture.

I haven't read far enough down to know if this was covered yet, but let me ask anyway.

Is it really proper for us mortals to put limits on what God can and cannot do?

If the Transcendent One wanted to take upon Himself a human body and become one of us, and still be the Transcendent One without jeopardising His humanity (and the natural limitations that entails), who am I, existing only by His grace, to say He can't?

In this sense, Christianity requires the most faith, in my opinion. God becoming a man? It was Tertullian (I think?) who said that he believed because it was all entirely too crazy to be anything but the truth.

May we all have the faith to let God do and be whatever He wants, and not try to impose limits on the Limitless One.

Glory to You, Whom the highest heavens cannot contain, and yet You were contained in the womb of the Virgin!

--from the Syrian Liturgy