www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Episcopalian "Clown Eucharist"

I can only pray that this perversity has not infected English Catholicism as it appears to have seduced America. It probably has happened here, this fornication, but I have never come across it thank the Lord and I'm more or less sure this licence has ceased here in the U.K.

Such an offense to God!

Lord have mercy.

CHURCH WARS

EPISODE II: ATTACK OF THE CLOWNS

CIRCUS! The ordaining of a homosexual to the office of bishop was but one of many of Dark Insidious� plan�s for the complete takeover of the ECUSA. Subtle and overt changes over the years � from adjustments to the Prayer Book to ordaining female priests have been part of the strategy for the completion of the invasion. Glorying in the new divisions caused by this action inspires fresh affronts to Holy Scripture and Tradition as the once noble ECUSA teeters�her faith is undermined. The latest attack is from a special clown army, kept hidden until the reverence and common sense of her members has waned. The people are led to turn the holy gathering place into a circus and offer strange fire in place of true worship; the salt has lost its savor. Confusion breaks out as no one knows where the holy gathering place is anymore, for it has become indistinguishable from the ordinary or profane. Meanwhile, Ang-li-can Pew-sitter, who was brought up in the ways of the Holy One, has been deceived by the Dark One into seeing the Orthodox faithful as rebels and enemies of the ECUSA. He has been convinced that the faithful will destroy the ECUSA with their narrow ways and creeds. His fear of not having a congregation for his posterity drives him to accept without question the Dark agenda of the corrupting leadership. Any opposition to these disgraces is seen as uncharitable. The faithful are singled out as trouble-makers as their protests are heard. Pew-sitter obeys his new master and distances himself from his former �intolerant� friends, who drop off � one by one. As children of the Holy One throughout the Kingdom weep, Dark Insidious laughs as his plan unfolds and the Old Ways collapse � a few faithful priests and laity skilled in the use of the Holy Saber, faithful to the traditions of the ancients and loyal to the most Holy One, brace for the inevitable conflict as they watch many being seduced into heresy � others flee to the safety of the Western and Eastern systems �

DJS,

It was celebrated on April 2, 1978, at the now somewhat infamous Paulist Center, by Father Joachim Lally, CP, who is presently serving a Paulist parish in NYC, last I knew. While I don't know Father Lally personally, I know of him, from many years after the fact.

He received a number of honors for his pastoral and community work with and for the Latino communities in Massachusetts and just celebrated his 40th anniversary of ordination. I report these things because, his decision to do what he did that day notwithstanding, he is apparently a quite remarkable individual and seemingly has acquitted himself quite admirably in the course of his priestly ministry, other than that single unfortunate instance. May God grant him many more years in His service.

You can find a report about the Boston "clown Mass" in a piece by Michael Davies on an SSPX site:

Send In the Clowns [sspx.ca]

Many years,

Neil

Tony,

The parish in question is indeed RC - St. Nicholas in Evanston, IL [nickchurch.org] , to be precise. The addition of that particular video to the website of the architectural firm that originally designed the church - a hundred years ago (and has redesigned it a few times since) has really caught the attention of folks. I think I've seen the link posted at a half-dozen forums.

The priest is quite the liturgical Fred Astaire :rolleyes: - but the altar server with the candle really needs lessons if he wants to make this a career path

Many years,

Neil

I saw the news about it before.
I think it was posted in this forum also.

Anyway, when I saw the recording of it... I feel my head aching already just by seeing the procession alone...............

For my self, I kinda like the modern achitecture of churches posted here though. Sure, that doesn't mean the whole church need to be so dull. That I dont like.

I don't know in the East, but isn't it quite common to have the altar in the middle of conggregation? Reminds me of monastery.

And I like particularly the big pool like baptismal font.

Too bad they get rid the kneeler.

Thanks for the link Neil. There was also a documented circus mass in the DC area in 1975 IIRC.
When thinking about a "number of years" I wasn't thinking of the number 27.

All,

I always believe it is a good and necessary thing to post two sides of an arguement.

As for the "Clown mass" in an Episcopalian church I honestly do not see why everyone here has made it such a big deal. If you consider it, and meaning no disrespect, are not all Episcopalian masses "clown masses?" That is, since Episcopalian orders (i.e. masses) are invalid arent their priests/esses just performing a Catholic-like, false service anyway?

And in regards to the procession at the Roman Catholic church in Illinois, it continues to astound me how generally mean-spirited some of you are on this forum. And yes that may seem harsh but equally as harsh is the criticism of a valid Roman Catholic mass.

I mean, these Catholics are just trying to fulfill what they believe is the mandate of our Second Vatican Council, namely to have more lay participation in the mass.

I address my fellow Byzantine Catholic brothers and sisters here who so graciously invite us onto this Forum. I realize that masses such as the one on the video clip seem alien and foreign to you because you are most likely used to the rich and beautiful liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, which includes little, if any, innovation. But please respect your sister Church. We are by no means perfect in the Roman Catholic Church, but we do try to live out our Christian faith and Catholic heritage. For you, the liturgy of the East suits you like a glove and though it may surprise you, your own liturgy may not be liked by some. And for some Roman Catholics, masses such as the one on the video clip suit them just fine as well. Again you are entitled to your own opinions on our church, but again please do not let those opinions come off as disrepectful. Because Lord forbid, someone say something ill of your own liturgies (and as I stated I am sure there are some who wouldnt like them at all-myself excluded of course)

If you look at it from another perspective maybe you can somehow at least tolerate this meas. For example keep in mind, though this mass wouldnt be your cup of tea so to speak, it is still a valid mass nonetheless. I took my mother once to a Byantine parish and the mass was so alien to her she told me that she felt as if she had not attended mass at all. Likewise, I see how many of you could feel that but in regards to the Roman church. But that never negates the fact that all of our masses are valid. Also, look at the clip again and see how many people are in that church. It is a joy to see that church is filled with both old and young who are happy to be in church, instead of sleeping through it.

And as for my fellow Roman Catholics who criticize this mass, I remind you that the Papal Indult exists whereby you may attend a tradtional Latin mass nearest you. It is both sad and hurtful that you denounce faithful members of your own communion because they do not worship exactly as you do.

so basically, I am calling for us to have respect for one anothers traditions. I am a Roman Catholic guest on this Forum-which I love very much. And many of you here are personal friends of mine both on and offline. I wouldnt want to leave this Forum on account of being utterly offended and hurt by my fellow Catholics. While I will always love differing opinions and subsequent dialogue, it does pain me when no one speaks for the other side of an argument, and that is what I attempted to do here.

May you all forgive me if I have offended you in some way, and I hope not to recieve nasty replies, because I honestly work for civility and understanding.

ProCatholico

I wonder if some of the RC "Clown Masses" ARE valid? I am not trying to be defamatory, here, I am just asking from point of view of reading things about chocolate chip cookies being consecrated...If this is the case, and matter other than that which the Catholic Church allows to be used for consecration in the Eucharist is used, IS it a valid consecration? And, if not IS the Mass valid?

Gaudior, seeking information, not trolling

Dear Gaudior,

It is an interesting question, albeit somewhat scholastic. Someone better versed on licity, validity, etc., will likely answer.

As to what you've read. I can tell you from gooling on the matter that the ratio of the number of RC "clown masses" to the number of indignant commentaries on the same is of order 1000 or more.

And the very clear cut cases (JPII being entertained by jugglers and acrobats at the Vatican does not count IMO), are old news. I haven't made the same analysis of "cookie" but that would not be as illuminating, given all the radical Protestant polemics about the death cookie.

ProCatholico,
Man is made in the image of God, not vice-versa. Therefore, I believe any Christian service should aim to transform man back to that image.
I think the problem with so many modern, ultra-liberal, humanistic churches is that they seek to make God in man's image. A Christian service should transfrom society, not vice-versa.
Wolfgang

Thank you, djs...and I AM aware that for every single anomally those who want to bash Catholics will repeat it often...but that is their problem.

Gaudior, still inquiring

Personally I think the Clown Mass should be compulsary for all liberal Episcopal parishes, every Sunday. After all, don't they subscribe to a Clown Theology?
-Daniel

Bravo Pro Catholico,
I saw nothing here that did not resemble a similar event in the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, namely the Little Entrance. As to what went on in the rest of the liturgy I do not know but I saw nothing offensive in this Gospel Procession.
Stephanos I

The clown mass... what can you say?
I can say lots, but I shall keepeth my mouth shut.
I think some folks forget that Christ is in our midst.. especially at communion. That may sound Western of me, but trans-culture, I think it is a common theme.
My pap was c of e. I remember the good old days when he said anglicans were Catholics that flunked latin. My c of e teacher in catholic high school prayed the rosary.
Guess it is a totally different C of E that what I grew up with. I'd be running so far from non-sense...
Non-sense is how the whole Anglican deal started in the first place. One man with control and power started this whole problem, and it has kept rolling downhill ever since.
I spoke my mind, I stick by it.
The Catholic Church has ways of bringing Anglicans home and working closely with them.
My dad's family grew up what would now be considered conservative anglican. It isn't really that far off from Roman Catholicism. You know, I'm sure the church doesn't have too much problem welcoming those folks home.
Yes, a weird, trans-east-west post.
Kind of a hit home post. My dad barely ever goes to the c of e. He would always go to the RCC, couldn't take communion, but liked it a lot more, but never would do the rcia.
So kind of like almost a catholic, but wouldn't commit to the rcia program. Still today, he'd rather go to a rcc than the c of e. Anymore, I've got him more interested in going back to what he should have been at birth, a UGCC.
He grew up with the orthodox/catholic ukie life. He misses it. They all get teary over the songs sang at weddings and funerals in ukrainian. He is just distant, but I feel in the long run he'll come home. In his eyes, there is no going back to the C of E.