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Good Morning:

I was raised as a Roman Catholic, but recently have become smitten by the Holy Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I live in Westchester, NY (just north of New York City). I've attended services at several Orthodox Churches in my area. Nearby my home is the wonderful Three Hierarchs Chapel at St. Vladmir's Seminary (OCA). There's also a nice Byzantine Catholic Church in White Plains, NY. I'm at a cross road...do I go to the Byzantine Church (thereby remaining Catholic), or do I make the leap, and join the Orthodox Church in America? Is there anything unique that I should know about either church that could help me make my decision. It seems that the OCA venerates Holy Icons more than the Byzantine Catholic Church...I adore icons...truly a door way to God. I love the Jesus Prayer, and meditate daily (mindfullness...awareness)...have done many retreats. I don't like how the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, completely ignores Cannon Law (no Bishop can lord over another Bishop). I think that married clergy is a good idea. I'm open to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

I would appreciate all comments.

Regards,

Andy

Andy-

As someone who has recently been where you are now, let me just say this: slow down. There is more to becoming Orthodox then just loving the Divine Liturgy. If you are happy being Catholic, but want to explore the East, go to your local Byzantine Catholic church. In becoming Orthodox, you have to ask yourself a few important questions:

-Do you believe the Church of Rome has fallen into heresy?

-Do you believe the Orthodox Church is the One, True Church and that all other Christians are outside the True Church?

Do you believe the pope to only have a "primacy of honor?"

At least answer these questions before jumping ship. If it is beautiful Liturgy you are looking for, try the Byzantine Catholic Church or perhaps a Tridentine Latin Mass if one is local to you.

God bless you on your journey,

Columcille

Dear Andy,

I'm from White Plains! Where are you from? Email me at enlightenedsince1981@excite.com if you'd rather not say in public.

I don't know how much you know about the Christian East, but the best way to learn about it is by participating in liturgical services and such. You live near Saint Vlad's. I just visited there; I think it's great, and I intend on attending their services on Saturday evenings more often. Saint Vlad's has a pretty nice schedule of services during the week (Vespers/Matins, etc.). It would be cool if you could get to at least some of those. Since you are Catholic, you can't receive Communion in an Eastern Orthodox church, so for Divine Liturgy, you'd want to visit whatever Eastern Catholic churches there are in the area. I myself only know of the BC church in White Plains (with its sister parish, I think, in Yonkers), and the Ukrainian and Melkite churches (also in Yonkers). There may be more, I don't know.

At any rate, write me, and if you're interested, we'll talk. God bless!

P.S. Heed Columcille's advice. It's important, and I'm sorry I forgot something along those lines in my post. I'm glad, however, that he remembered.

Colum,

you must know that the Orthodox Faith does proclaim that it is the True Faith of Christ but it does NOT pronounce on where the Spirit of God is NOT (despite certain Orthodox polemicists) Please be fair in laying out the choices for the inquirer. For myself, i have found Orthodoxy to be the fulfillment of my Eastern Catholicism and the Mother of the Eastern Catholic Churches and so I will join her, God Willing. But She is less intolerant then you make Her out to be.

The information I have was given to me by an Orthodox priest whom I have been close to for about a year. Traditional Orthodoxy DOES proclaim that other Christians (while certainly still Christian) are outside the One, True Church.

There seem to varied opinions within Orthodoxy on this regard, but traditionally, this is the stance of the Orthodox Church.

Columcille

Dear Andy,

You can have no better advisor in this than Columcille who has become very wise in a short space of time!

As for me, I embrace all of Orthodoxy's Holy traditions etc. within the context of my own Particular Ukrainian/Kyivan Church.

I find that being in Communion with the Pope of Rome is something that lifts me out of any parochialism that may come with the territory .

The Roman Primacy is good for the Church - always was, always will be.

Tensions are to be expected, but they are not insurmountable.

We Eastern Catholics are Orthodox in communion with Rome.

Sorry I can't be more lucid right now. It's the Feast of St Photios the Great and I'm so happy . . .

Alex

Alex,

There you go confusing me again and it is after all very easy to do that

Now let me think aloud for a second -

you are a Ukie in Canada yes ?

and you are OC [ like the rest of the UGCC on that side] right ?

And now you are celebrating a Saint from the NC - right ?

And folk wonder why I get confused

Ah well let the education continue

Anhelyna

Dear Anhelyna,

Well, Ukraine itself celebrates Christmas three times, Old Calendar, New Calendar and Armenian Tradition (Theophany/Epiphany).

The Feast of ST Photios IS on February 6th. It is just that February 6th comes twice in any given year . . .

Alex

Alex ,

all that can be said to that is :-

Good one

Anhelyna :p

Not to pursue the calendar issue since it is very off-topic to this thread, but what Alex says is EXACTLTY what happens, although more explanation would have been even better.

On the "old calendar" Christmas is always December 25th it just happens that December 25th (according to the old calendar and by current reckoning) now corresponds to the civil calendar date of January 7th. As we all know, that will change to January 8th in the future, like it was January 6th some time back.

Back to the thread. Andy, feel free to ask for me at any time, I am the only Tony at St. Vlad's.

I would like to talk to you.

Tony

Dear Tony,

Thank you for the compliment!

You are the first person here who has ever suggested I write more . . .

Alex

"Traditional Orthodoxy DOES proclaim that other Christians (while certainly still Christian) are outside the One, True Church."

Well, the Orthodox Church in general does proclaim to be the True Church (what kind of Church would say is not the true Church? ). This is because Orthodoxy firmly holds the doctrines of the 7 Ecumenical Councils and the synodal tradition of the Church.

However, World Orthodoxy does not teach that Roman Catholicism is heretical, or that the spirit of God does not exist in the Roman Church, or that non-orthodox will not be saved.
The historical primacy of the Pope of Rome has never been denied (it would be good to read the documents of the Ecumenical Patriarchate about this issue), but Orthodoxy rejects the "supremacy of jurisdiction" and the infallible character that the Pope has had in the Roman Church (in this is mostly because these doctrines were developped centuries after the schism.)

Very few Orthodox theologians would state today that the Roman Sacraments are false, or that Roman Baptism is invalid because it is not done by full immersion (and you'll notice that some Serb priests perform the Baptism in the Roman way, indeed ), or that the use of azyma "invalidates" the Eucharist, or that they do not possess Apostolic Succession.

Unlike Roman Catholicism, that mesures the validity of the Sacraments performed outside the Church through the intention, the matter and the forms; in Orthodoxy the root of the problem lays in the lack, or presence of grace in those sacraments that are performed outside the Church. Orthodoxy is now quite divided on this topic.

(But here it is important to say that those groups who hold radical possitions, claiming that the Roman Baptism is unexistent and must be repeated (neo-donatism), or that the Pope is the antichrist, or who reject communion with the rest of the Orthodox Bishops and thus Communion with the Church, or that even the sacraments of World Orthodoxy are devoid of grace, are also outside the Church :rolleyes: )

The tensions between the more ecumenical-minded Orthodox and those who are more rigid about those outside of Orthodoxy is quite real. Some Orthodox are just as insistent against the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches just as they are against the Churches in communion with Rome.

While I was a member of the OCA mission parish here locally (which was a wonderful experience) we lost our priest (he died suddenly). The nearest OCA parish was 300 miles N of here and we were served every other week or so by a visiting priest. Sometimes it was 2 or 3 weeks between visits. We continued with Reader's Services. I was what could be considered an "ecumenist" Orthodox and once during the long periods without a priest I frequented a Roman parish for Confession during a particularly low point in my life. A couple of weeks later I was visiting the OCA parish in Portland and went to Confession there. I asked the priest there if I should confess that I had been to Confession at the Roman parish. His answer was a surprised: "Yes." So I confessed it.

My understanding is that no matter how "ecumenist" one may be as Orthodox that reception of Catholic mysteries is still not permitted--though there are a few that seem open to the idea.

Even though I have returned to communion with the Catholic Church I still have a very high respect and love for my former parish. For one, Orthodox Churches have no problem in following Eastern traditions. Many Eastern Catholic parishes are still struggling with restoring Eastern traditions. (By and large, the Melkites have succeeded the most on this...many Ruthenians and Ukrainians still seem resistant to the idea.)

My perspective now is: The Orthodox Churches are definitely part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Where the Eucharist is--there is the Church. I also believe that the Roman Church would do well to listen to the Eastern Churches to be instructed in many ways liturgically and theologically. But, I believe the Church is bigger than just Orthodoxy (either Chalcedonian or non-Chalcedonian). I also believe in the need for and the benefit of the Petrine ministry for the whole Church.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dear Dave,

Just a note to congratulate you on your great witness and service to the Church, especially via your website.

Your hard work is appreciated by us all, and by many others!

Alex

Dear David Ignatius,

Whether or not the mystery is "valid" is not the issue, it is one of discipline and of jurisdiction.

The practice of the Russian Church shows clearly what its view of (Roman) Catholic sacraments is.

It is my understanding that in extraordinary cases ekonomia has been exercised, always with the bishop's blessing (or the priest's, the bishop's being presumed).

Tony