www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Abstinence and Sainthood

I hope this is the correct place for my question.

I was reading last night this thread last night

https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=004036


and was a bit bewildered
please would someone explain about this sentence

quote -- it is generally understood that married couples abstain from sexual relations during a fast.


I really do not understand at all

There was also a mention of married saints - did they really have to do this ?

quote - Most married saints, like St. Nicholas Planas, St. Luke of modern Russia, generally ended up widowers, or elderly and in celibate marriages.

Is this the normal thing for all Orthodox people ?

Can you explain why ?

TLF-

I'm certainly not an eexpert on any aspect of this question.

But I think the key is "fast". As one quote in the thread explained:

Hope this helps!

MarkosC

Dear Thereselefleur,

I think the best answer would be to read up on the lives of the saints. Saints usually reach a time and condition when they are more of a spiritual entity than a physical wordly one. Basically they have attained 'theosis' while still living in this world. It would be impossible, (or so I think), while in this spiritual condition to have carnel/physical desires.

As an example of the state that can be achieved through prayers and the Grace of God: I read recently in a book about a Lutheran minister that went to Mt. Athos. He found himself standing in a church and praying for 18 hours. Now just imagine someone not eating, drinking, sitting, sleeping and conducting any bodily function for 18 hours. He was so amazed that he became an Orthodox monk.

Of course this does not mean that those who have become saints because they have been martyred for the faith, had ever reached that state.

Zenovia

It is my personal opinion that there are numerous saints whom we know nothing about because they went about their day to day lives with humility. I have an image in my head of two saints, married, peaceful, walking hand in hand, exuding love and peace. They might very well not have sexual relations in their last years, but they might as well. Either way, they would exude that same peace which comes from an acceptance of Christ. But what of these people ten, twenty, thirty years before? Was it not possible for them to be saints while they were having children or sex? Is it likely that any people who die with a young child at home could not be a saint since they obviously recently had sex? When worded that way, I can't imagine that anyone would agree.

I agree with every sentiment that Alice has in that there is a greatness exuded by certain people here on earth, and that these people typically tend to be celibate. But I just hesitate to say that it is the only way to sainthood, as I think there are many who made it there through small and quiet means unbeknownst to any of us. But since these saints were not large and great, little to nothing is known about them. So it remains my personal opinion that one can reach sainthood through many paths (including parenthood), but that some paths tend to be (rightfully) exalted over others.

I think, not being a Dr. Ruth, that most older people don't have the drive for normal relations or the physical capability to do so either. At least that's the way it was in St. Basil the Elder's, John Kronstadt's, and St. Louis IX's day and age. (St. Louis IX king of France, whose feast day was yesterday, and is patron of the Archdiocese of St. Louis, MO.)

Well... except now middle aged and old ladies are now expected to take younger lovers a la Mrs. Robinson and certain celebrities.

And the invention of certain pills that shall remain nameless allow men the opportunity to cheat nature and pursue their appetites.

But I have another question. How do we apply this reasonably without slipping into certain gnostic ideas about matter and spirit?

Saint Basil the Elder had nine children. Saint Louis had eleven children. Saint Monica was the mother of St. Augustine. Saint Margaret of Scotland had eight children. I don't think that conceiving children detracts one from God. And I really don't think that these Holy men and women were distanced from God because of their living in the normal married state

Having written the above...

The monastic state is better for those who are called to it as they do what the Rich Young Man in the Gospel could not do.

"Sell all your possessions and come and follow Me."

The Apostles did, even St. Peter left his wife (or was she widowed?) and a tradition holds that it was St. Simon the Zealot's wedding at Cana and he left his bride to follow Jesus after the Miracle. As St. Paul said, it is better to be single so as to do only the Lord's will and not that of a spouse or oneself.

But... if a man or woman is not called to the monastic state and he/she joins any way (and manages to slip past the abbot without a vocation) then he/she could be risking his/her soul.

Just like if a man or woman is called to the monastic life and doesn't heed the call and enters marriage, he/she could be risking his/her soul.

My advice on this is, enter either state with extreme caution and get a Spiritual Father who can help discern what to do.