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#58298 02/15/06 12:22 PM
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I found this interesting post online some where. It should not be offensive in any way. I think it merely points out another view point.

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I'd like to offer some food for thought rather than launching into one of my characteristic rants. Some ten months after the death of Pope John Paul II (may God assoil him), some (perhaps many) still bandy about the moniker "the Great" in relation to him. Even some fellow members of the League proclaim him to be "John Paul the Great". Without entering into a debate over the accomplishments or failings of the late Pontiff, let us consider some popes who were not deemed worthy of the title "the Great":

Nicholas II (1059-1061): The pope who made the College of Cardinals the sole electors of the Pope; before the First Lateran Council , which he convened, the selection of a new pope involved the clergy, the faithful, and sometimes machinations of secular authorities. He cracked down on simony, married clergy, and secular influence in the Church and had to march on Rome with an army to take his rightful place from an antipope.
St. Gregory VII (1073-1085): Consolided the Papacy as a centralized monarchy of secular and religious power. He famously brought Holy Roman Emperor Henry IV to his knees, making him stand in the snow for days begging forgiveness. He was eventually driven into exile by those who resisted his strong hand in rooting out simony and corruption in the Church, but his efforts transformed the papacy and arguably "saved" the Church.
Bl. Urban II (1088 - 1099): The pope who invoked the First Crusade with his famous sermon at the Council of Clermont. He too, had to work against the opposition of Henry IV, but he saw Gregory VI's reforms come to fruition; indeed, without him they likely would have failed.
Innocent III (1198-1216): Officially approved and supported the Franciscans and Dominicans, called the Fourth Lateran Council, preached the Fourth Crusade, and put into force doctrine that earthly monarchs must be subject to the pope. He wrote extensively and was widely read throughout the Middle Ages.
Paul III (1534-1549): He convoked the Council of Trent, approved the Society of Jesus, cracked down on clerical abuses and established formal seminaries to train priests, excommunicated Henry VIII rather than grant him a divorce, and founded the "Roman Inquisition" to enforce doctrinal purity.
St. Pius V (1566-1572): Enacted the reforms of Trent, codified the Mass, built hospitals and used the Papal treasury to care for the poor, published a new breviary and catechism, led Christendom in the defeat of the Mohammedans at Lepanto.
Bl. Pius IX (1846-1878): The second-longest reign in history (after St. Peter). He sparked a spiritual revival with the declaration of the Immaculate Conception, called the First Vatican Council that saw papal infallibility defined, wrote the Syllabus of Errors.
Leo XIII (1878-1903): Laid the groundwork for Catholic social thought and the church's response to modern economics and industrialization.
St. Pius X (1903-1914): Beat back Modernism in the Church, increased reception of Holy Eucharist among the faithful (destroying the last vestiges of Jansenism), initiated the codification of Canon Law.
Keep in mind, once again, that these were all popes deemed unworthy of the appelation "the Great". Indeed, I agree with history that the accoplishments of these popes, as impressive as they are, do not rise to the level of St. Gregory the Great or St. Nicholas the Great. Can anyone seriously suggest that the Church has seen such revival in the last 26 years to rival, let alone surpass, the pontificates listed above? I don't think so. I agree that John Paul II was great, magnificent even, when compared to Pope Paul VI. But we must measure his pontificate against those of all 263 of his predecessors. It does not require anyone to think John Paul II was a bad pope even, to decide that his pontificate does not surpass those listed here. If the above-popes, when compared to their peers, were not found to be great, can John Paul II be great? It seems to me that greatness requires something monumental.
What say ye?

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I say that he contributed (in a major way) to the fall of the greatest evil the Church has faced since the early days of persecution: communism!

Alice

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Ray S.

I think I agree. How I loved Pope John Paul II. He did marvelous things. But I think that most of the popes listed did even more magnificent things.

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Pope John Paul the Great planted the seeds for the coming Springtime of the Church. It is too early to see the fruits of all he accomplished! I would say that anyone who can't see how the Church has turned around since his pontificate began must have his eyes closed.
-Daniel

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Ray,

Part of the problem with your list is there can be only one Great for a given name, (which is the whole purpose of the designation) therefore any Pope named Leo, Gregory or Nicholas is automatically excluded from the title no matter how great they are.

Besides that I can see how some ultramontanes might think everyone on the list deserving of the title Great I suspect a greater number, especially Easterners, would not consider any of them worthy of the designation. Just as I am sure ultramontanes would not consider St. Photios worthy of the title but there it is.

Fr. Deacon Lance


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The comments listed thus far have hit on a lot of things I had thought about the subject. One thing that really hurts John Paul II's case to be called "Great" would be the social communication industry that can show all of this many failings as Pope. No other pope can even compare to his disadvantage, to include Paul VI. I don't think he would get a fair shake because of all the revisionists out there.

That being said, John Paul came to us by God's grace at a time when we needed a non-Italian pope. His accomplishments speak for his record. For a 25 year-old such as myself, John Paul was the Papacy. For all that he did, I still don't think he is even the greatest pope of the 20th century: IMHO, St. Pius X would be worthy of that honor. There are too many divisions in the Post-Vatican II Latin Church to convince me that he was greater than St. Pius X, who brought so many things to us as Ray wrote above.

It's too early to say whether John Paul II is a "Great" pope, and I think we should wait until he is canonized before any talk of such a title get underway.

Cyril


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I agree with Cyril that it is too early to say whether John Paul II deserves the title of "Great." Many Catholics around the world never even lived under the reign of another Pope, so I don't really see how they (including myself) can be completely objective.

I think that this question might better be left up to future generations of Catholics.

Logos Teen

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Dear Ray,

Pope John Paul the Great is being called so spontaneously by many Catholics.

It has always been a tradition from the Middle Ages for the "Vox Populi" to express itself on the matter.

He was truly worthy of "the Great" title for many reaons, including his clear stand on doctrine, on Marian devotion, on ecumenical outreach, on human rights et alia that won him the admiration of Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

Even my agnostic uncle made it a point to personally follow the services of World Youth Day in Toronto - believe me, that was a miracle in and of itself.

As for the popes you listed, none of them would ever have the title "the Great" for any number of reasons.

Paul III turned on Henry VIII not because of principle - but because the Spanish king, father of Catherine of Aragon, had invaded Italy and was keeping the pope his hostage, in effect. The only "politically correct" thing the pope then could have done was turn on the wayward husband of his captor's daughter. Hardly a heroic act.

St Pius V was very holy indeed. He led the rosary to defeat the forces at Lepanto. AND he excommunicated Elizabeth I of England, a Protestant, after repeated entreaties from English Catholics to him NOT to do that since that act would turn them into traitors of their own country etc.

The reaction of England to the excommunication was predictable and resulted in the ultimately avoidable deaths of many English Catholics.

I don't know if you'd find many Catholics today who would want to sing the praises of any popes who led the way to establishing a centralized papal monarchy. If you hear of some, please let us know!

None of the popes you mentioned above have much relevance for the Church in today's context. The notable exception would be Pope St Pius X who helped the poor and did indeed destroy Jansenism with his teaching on frequent communion.

This pope has one "strike" against him in that he was a former amateur boxer and once, as a parish priest, attacked a parishioner who swore boldly and loudly after Mass one Sunday and knocked him out with one punch . . . A pope who would have felt at home during the sessions of some of the early Ecumenical Councils, no less . . . wink

No, Pope John Paul the Great deserves that title for renewing the pastoral context of the papacy and being a symbol for peace and harmony for Catholics and for the world.

There really wasn't a pope like that since the schism of 1054 AD.

But he definitely wasn't "flavour of the month" and still isn't with ultramontanists.

And ultramontanism's day has come and gone.

Alex

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John Paul the Great? I don't think he'd want that title even if it is deserving. I simply look forward to his being recognized as "Saint John Paul....whatever"!

As Alex pointed out the people have already spoken. Just Google "John Paul the Great" if you don't believe me.

Two interesting articles published in the secular press I found when I Googled after I read this thread.

From more or less an historical perspective:
www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/469kzdxb.asp?pg=1 [weeklystandard.com]

From a personal perspective:
www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110002074 [opinionjournal.com]

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Alex I disagree with your opinion of Pope St Pius V. The English Catholics did suffer as a result of his excommunication but what exactly was he supposed to do? Elizabeth locked up all the Catholic Bishops in England so that her vote to take over the Church could pass through Parliament, she was a manifest heretic and leading the country to error. Yes, the Catholics of England did suffer for Pius' action. But after the revolt of the northern Earls I dont see how Pius could've stayed quiet. He had to honour their deaths.


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When were Sts. Leo, Gregory, and Nicholas all surnamed "The Great?" I think it will take many, many years to come up with an accurate sense of his Pontificate.

We still have to deal with all of the bishops and cardinals that he appointed and consecrated who are less than savory. Don't forget about Assisi 1 & 2.

He did help bring about the fall of Communism though and stood up for morality.

Our descendants will decide this one.

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As concerns Elizabeth's excommunication, we as Catholics do know that committing sin in order to bring about good is never justifiable.

I'm not necessarily saying that not publically excommunicating the Virgin [sic] Queen would be a sin, but it could perhaps be a sin of omission. I wasn't there; I don't know. But if the Holy Father deemed it as such, then excommunication was his only choice, regardless of the consequences. And St. Pius V wasn't responsible for the Queen's actions inasmuch as she had free will and full control of her faculties. She's the one to blame for the murder of those Catholics.

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History is interesting. Pope Pius is criticised for not condeming the Nazis enough. The Dutch bishops issued a statement and got all their Christian Jews rounded up. Grand statements are all very well. Actions are sometime more appropriate at times that when grand statements are more akin to shooting ones mouth off. Pope Pius was obviously wise to this and how the Nazis were shaping up and basically told all who needed to know to just get on and deal with issues and save the talking for another day.

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I think mainly the works of "Theology of the Body" is what makes John Paul II great. It's truly a theological time bomb.

I envision that the next 25 years we'll see a huge growth of a "seed" of spring time which he constantly mentioned.

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Dear Pavel,

We're talking here about St Pius V - not Pius XII.

Alex

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