www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology John Paul II the Great ???

Dear Alex you correctly said:

"In actual fact, the pilgrims coming to visit Pope John Paul the Great's tomb daily are many . . .

EVEN if something could be found to criticize about his papacy, that, in and of itself, would have NO bearing on his personal sanctity nor would it scar the greatness of his many, objectively approved, achievements.

When Pope John Paul died, I remember watching Orthodox Jews following the events in Rome and reading about him - at airports and other places.

I was in the Grand Republic to the South (USA) at the time and saw U.S. flags go down to half-mast everywhere - I don't remember ever seeing such a spontaneous salute to the memory of a Catholic Pope!

The shadow Pope John Paul II cast, in life and in death, was of such size that it covered many millions of people.

I would say such a papacy was successful!"

May I add:

We have to realize that Pope John Paul II came at a difficult time and had a lot to contend with. That he was able to do so in itself, shows his greatness...especially when we consider his poor health. The man was certainly a saint and martyr, and that is why the whole world mourned.

Zenovia

Jakub,

I had to look up that word on the internet.

thanks I always like learning something new.

Dear Lawrence,

And your point is?

Alex

Dear Friends,

It is very good that every Pope since Vatican II is up for canonization in some way.

As for Pius XII, let's DO remember that Pope John Paul II wanted to beatify him as well, but there are entire organizations around that oppose Pius XII's canonization and that was that.

The same holds true for the canonization of the Ukrainian UGCC Hierarch Met. Andrew Sheptytsky - so I don't want to hear you Latins cry about it, O.K.?

Pope John Paul the Great, so beloved by some of you guys, beatified and promoted the Cause of many traditional Latin saints who had been all but forgotten - he beatified for the Universal Church the Franciscan, Bl. John Duns Scotus, who laid the theological foundations for the Western dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

In addition, it is interesting to hear any traditional Catholic question the greatness of Pope John Paul II's papacy, especially given that this pope was one of the most "Marian" popes around.

I remember when Catholics used to scream "extremist" at St Louis de Montfort's Marian spirituality.

But then along comes Pope John Paul II, whose Marian spirituality was directly influenced by Montfort and who even contemplated declaring Montfort a Doctor of the Church!

His document on the Rosary alone, in my view, earns him the title of "Doctor of the Church."

He brought Marian devotion back to centre stage in the Latin Church during a time when it seemed to be all but eclipsed as Vatican II and its subsequent spirit seemed anxious to play it down for purposes of ecumenism with the Protestants.

Pope John Paul II, however, affirmed that Mary is truly at the root of fruitful ecumenical talks with everyone - and he was most certainly correct.

It seems that traditional Catholics have Pope John Paul II, as we say in Ukrainian, "in their kidneys," because of his ecumenical stand that they find scandalous.

In fact, he changed how the world views the Catholic Church, even with the sex scandals (which are largely an American Catholic phenomenon that was mishandled by the American bishops).

His legacy is one of being a peace-maker who gave us a living example of how one may be true to one's faith and yet reach out to people of good-will of other faiths.

That is his enduring legacy to a war-torn world - and the U.S. foreign policy can stand to learn a great deal from Pope John Paul the Great too.

So please forgive me if I don't just disagree with you, but also feel the need to express some ridicule of your position - but in a Christian way.

I'll take on anyone who comes at Pope John Paul II - one by one, or in groups . . .

Alex

Dr Alex

My point is that there is a double standard when it comes to speaking critically of past Popes and the dividing line is pre and post V2.

Dear Lawrence,

And I don't think that is necessarily true when applied to Pope J2P2.

As noted by a very intelligent poster above, Catholic liberals criticize John Paul's religious perspectives and Catholic conservatives his ecumenical outreach.

To support Pope John Paul the Great is to also support that pope's belief that Pope Piux XII should be canonized and so on.

So he doesn't fit into any neat categorization - in life or now in eternal life.

Ciao!

Alex

Of course, Lawrence, another way to look at it is that since Vatican II, it TAKES a saint to take on the demanding job of Pope!

Since we are discussing blessed + John Paul II, and I have not seen this letter discussed or posted here before...and please forgive any ignorance on my part...I am still exploring my Slavic roots and I know my dear Ukranian brother Alex will elaborate in his special & gifted way(is this too thick or what ?), I found it valuable and very informative;

Blessed Pope John Paul II Encyclical Epistle - Slavorum Apostoli - Sts. Cyril and Methodius

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j...i_enc_19850602_slavorum-apostoli_en.html

james

The cut off is 1964. NOTHING is of any value before that date. However I prefer to measure time as before The Beatles and after The Beatles. I think this is much more in tune with the the rythm of the seasons and the coming and going, the back and forth, the up and down, which is more natural than a date off the calendar on the Wall. I just thought I would share that which was going on in my head before I went for my evening constitutional on the shores of the southern Ocean.

ICXC
NIKA

Pavel,

I correct your post with the following data: 1964 1/2, not 1964. The Mustang, not The Beatles. Another acceptable answer would be 1968 GT 500KR, Shelby.

Cheers,

Cyril

*head bowed...breast beating in progress...1/2 way through a pot of tea* See how easily I get distracted. Chaska chai time take priority with us byzantines. We know what's important.

ICXC
NIKA