www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Fr Taft on UGCC Patriarchate

I have a few questions about the issues posted in this thread and hope that someone (or more) can help me.

Given the fact that in 1596 the Metropolitan of Kyiv and the bulk of the bishops of the Kyivan Church changed their patriarchal allegiance from Constantinople to Rome, how would that have affected the Russian Orthodox Church in the long run? It seems that with the MP tradition of having the Kyivan Metropolitan enthrone and crown the Patriarch of Moscow, that having the same Metropolitan no longer in communion would threaten their historic claim to being heirs of the ancient seat of Russian Christianity. If that is the case, is it any wonder that they would be hostile to the UGCC on a permanent basis and to the establishment of a Kyivan patriarchate of any kind on the same sort of basis?

On the issue of property, some of the most ancient churches and monasteries in Ukraine are now in the control of the Metropolitan in communion with the MP. Is it the case that all of these would have (or should have) transferred with the bishops who joined the Union? In that case, how will (or should) these issues ever be resolved?

Is it possible that the tragic Great Schism is writ large on the territory of Ukraine because of the shifting of history and the overlap of East and West on that part of the Lord's Vineyard?

Thanks.

In Christ,

BOB

Clearly we agree on point one.

I agree that it WAS the Polish Catholic curia which WAS blocking the beautification of Met. Andreij Shyptytsky. In fact, not only do I believe the Pope is for the beautification process, but because of him it has moved so quickly.

Why ?
because he has been educated about the events. Read the recent post of father Deacon Peter of the UGCC in regards to the ceremony at Majdanek concentration camp for the Fr. Emilian Kovch. Father Peter was asked to be the main speaker at 7 masses to commemorate Fr. Emilian Kovch. In addition to speaking about Fr Emlian Kovch, Fr Peter took great care in reviewing the details relating to Met. Andreij Shyptysky exceptional treatment of Jewish refugees, Polish landoweners, etc... Once the Polish population is better educated about his activities they will be be able to see him as a trully saintly man.

Unfortunately, as things stand right now, many Poles still harbour the communist anti-Greek Catholic propaganda they were fed for generations. Once the Polish population is better informed, the process of beautification will proceed rapidly. The Pope is behind this, and so will the rest of Poland (curia included) be within a few short years. In fact, I believe the curia members are no longer blocking it.

It's bound to the 2004 Ukrainian presidential election

Can you provide more details ?

We can have a possy at his ranch by sundown

If anyone believes that the bishop of Saskatchewan, or British Columbia, or Brazil, or Mars, is going to stop 'dem energized ukes over dare' from getting their Patriarch - Soon - then it's "bye bye vladyko" or if need be "adios to the whole eparchy" even sooner.

In the old days our Patriarch Isidore....er...I mean Bishop Isidore would just have a talk with a guy like that and he would come on board, and of course that's why the Vatican curia didn't like him.

Please give more details about the Saskatchewan guy.

Dear Theophan,

In regards to your first statement (the number editing is mine) you hit the nail on the proverbial head. In fact, the Vatican whent so far as to document the legitimacy of the UGCC claim by supplying the Ecumenical and Moscow Patriarchs with documents dating back hundreds of years.

"See" said the Vatican official when pointing to a paper trail dating back to the early Cossak era. "The UGCC is the legitimate heir to the seat of the Kyivan Patriarchate". So of course the Moscow Patriarch is mad because he dosen't have any proof that the Kyivan Metropolitans ever ceeded any power to his Patriarchy. There is also some question about his rise to power with the help of the communists.

Not only is the whole legitimacy of the Moscow Patriarchy in question, but even the name 'Rus' (Russia) which was usurped from the Rusyns. They may have to start calling themselves Muscovites again, and the Ukrainians will become Ruthenians (Rusyns) again, and the Carpatho-Rusyns will become Ukrainians (after everyone else has reverted to Ruthenians ). When will all of this be resolved ? Who knows !

ditto for church property

Whilst I love being a part of this forum, I cannot help but notice that phyletism is running rampant.

Anton

Anton---I'm with you! And I thought Belorusians were bad...LOL

In Christ Who calls us,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory

Hritzko:

Thanks for the clarification. I'm trying to understand the back and forth of this situation.

May I add something that will probably get me stoned--they used to stone the messenger who came with news that no one wanted to hear.

My family has always lived by the proposition that people are more important than things. That includes money, property, or other "stuff." I've always stressed to my children that family is most important and that if a situation comes up where someone will break a relationship over some article or piece of "stuff" then it's best to let the "stuff" go and keep the relationship.

In Christ, Scripture says, there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male or female. If I may be allowed a bit of license, there is neither Swede nor Ukrainian nor Russian nor Greek nor Latin nor Armenian. We who have been baptised are brothers because we all share the life of grace given by the Trinity. We are all adopted and no one has a greater claim to being family over another. It breaks my heart that the family of Christians treats each other worse than non-believers. Even when we don't agree on doctrine or theology or how to put it all into practice, it seems to me that we all owe each other simple common courtesy. Even nonbelievers do that. But I guess, human nature being what it is, we won't see much of that.

But why is it that everyone outside our own group is called a "graceless heretic" as some sort of reflex response? I've worked with almost every group of Christians that one can find and it seems to be the same everywhere. Everyone seems to have an ax to grind and wants to have the last whack at his brother. The greatest area of amnesia around is the fact that Christ came to save the one we most often want to turn our ire on. Good thing God's got a sense of humor given the fact that we know the Holy Spirit goes where He wills and moves whomever He pleases to get the Father's Will done. Otherwise we've all got a lot more to answer for than we even may think (and I know I've got a lot more than I wish I had). Or maybe it's going to be a lot of surprise and embarrassment at the Judgment as well as whatever wrath comes.

I told someone once that it seemed to me that God was like a Master Draftsman Who did a beautiful plan and then left it out on his desk. We, His children, came along and each wanted to change a little part of it, but we didn't get to use a fine point pencil or CAD. We used crayons and permanent markers to really mess it up.

I'm glad God is God and I'm not because I don't know how to get people to look at the person next to them as a brother rather than as an enemy.

In the meantime, I'll just pray for everyone--that God will give to each one whatever He knows is necessary.

In Christ,

BOB

Bless, Father Archimandrite!

"Phyletism" - a catch-all term when all other argument is exhausted to decry one's opponents.

How ISN'T the Moscow Patriarchate phyletistic?

Or the other national Orthodox Churches?

Or the Polish RC Church - and others?

I expected a bit more breadth of perspective from you, Father Archimandrite, especially since you are a former Roman Catholic.

The issues between the MP and Ukraine (and other national churches that were former vassals of the MP) are complex indeed.

By your comments here you have demonstrated that you largely and uncritically accept the position of the MP as the "largest Church" etc.

Perhaps our Lord, at the Last Judgement, won't be all too impressed by how large a church we belonged to - but how closely that church followed Him?

Sorry, but Russophilism in Western converts has always been a sore point with me.

Alex

Dear Hritzko,

You consistently keep defending the position of the religious/national integrity of the Ukrainian Church as if it were the main heir of the Kyivan tradition of Sts. Andrew and Volodymyr the Great.

Keep up the good work . . .

Alex

Phyletists of the world, unite! We have nothing to lose but flavorless mush!
Incognitus

Dear Revered Incognitus,

Yes, and if we Ukies defend our rights or traditions or aspirations - then we are phyletists.

I have uncles who are Russian Orthodox priests with the Moscow Patriarchate.

The Russian Church is deeply proud of its Russianness - and that's the way it should be.

We simply oppose enduring imperialism of a Russian chauvinistic brand.

Sorry if that upsets anyone's plans!

Alex

Alex, +May the LORD bless you dear Alexander with more of a sense of humor! I'm an old monk now...and I've learned over this 40 years of monastic life that MUCH of what we think is important ISN'T! We ALL have only ONE Mother-country: HEAVEN...every other land, Quebec (for my people), Greece, Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, and all the rest as foreign lands compared to PARADISE! That's what I've learned over all my time as a monk.

I wish you only peace!

Perhaps it's time for me to rethink this whole "discussion forum" think altogether? I'm beginning to think that the whole thing may be 'flawed,' at least for us monastics.

In His Most Precious Name,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory

Bless, Father Archimandrite,

Please forgive me, a terrible sinner!

I withdraw my ill-advised post above and impose a temporary penance of absence from here to learn to be more perspicacious.

Yes, perhaps we Ukies are phyletists after all.

I wouldn't like to think so.

But perhaps you are right.

If my positions give offense to yourself and to your Church, or in any way would lead to your withdrawal from this forum where you are such a great blessing to one and all, including myself, then I repent fully of them and cast myself on your benevolence in search of at least your partial forgiveness.

(I thought you meant "File-a-tism" - you know, a certain bureaucratic outlook . . . you don't believe me? Oh, well . . .)

I don't need an Administrator to impose a canonical penance on me - I can do it myself and it begins now . . .

Alex

Now now Alex, see there you go---there's NO need for all of that. I was trying to be humorous...and show you that many things that we ALL think are very important, aren't nearly so. Everyone should be proud of their heritage and their nationality and love it deeply, but in the end, we all have ONE HOMELAND: PARADISE!

If I offended you in any way whatsoever, please forgive me...and show that your forgiveness is authentic by remaining here with us all...and sharing your ideas.

We ALL perhaps need this coming Great Lent more than we even realized? LOL And we all need to laugh a bit more (no matter what the Eastern Fathers say), after all, we are all hyphenated Americans anyway. LOL

Doing my prostrations before you and asking for the triple kiss,

I remain, your poor brother,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who needs your forgivness & your holy prayers!