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Alas, Alex I am not a hunter myself, although I do like to fish. I just think in this day and age a priest (or deacon) should be able to if he so desires.
Fr. Deacon Lance
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Dear Father Deacon Lance,
And I just think the very idea of hunting for a clergyman is so distasteful . . .
Hunters up here in the Peaceable Kingdom have a very bad reputation, pay disrespect to nature and the environment and cause all sorts of accidents resulting in wounding and death.
Two friends of mine have died in hunting mishaps.
Hunters up here are real dopes for the most part.
The very idea that priests, who are supposed to be icons of Christ (aren't we all?), would even WANT to engage in this sort of barbaric activity is distasteful.
And I was referring to you as a "fisher of men."
After all, you do throw some excellent lines! :p
Alex
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My husband's cousin is a retired priest and he, the cousin, hunts pheasants.
I shot a grouse once when I was quite young. Never have since. It still bothers me.
Of course I eat chicken all of the time.
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Hunting for me is not barbaric, nor more unsafe than driving on todays roads.
It's is a passed down tradition that was taught to me by my father, who was taught by his father, ect.
I just do not understand how one could have a problem with hunting, but not butchering at a slaughterhouse.
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Wasn't there some old movie where a Latin priest sets up a gym for the neighborhood kids to come in out of the Irish or Italian ghetto? He teaches them to box or something like that. I vaguely remember this, but I don't know the details..
Anyone else know what I'm babbling about?
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I think that was "On the Waterfront." The Priest was played by Karl Malden.
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Another Bambi hugger I suppose...! Just kidding...mostly! You know , it is a privilege to hunt in our country. It is NOT a right. Most of the so-called 'civilzed' world puts tight restrictions of the lawful use of firearms (not to mention bows). We have a wonderful opportunity to hunt un-hormone-ized and un-anitbioticed game, that live on the natural environment. Did you ever see how REALLY barbaric and in-humane the pen raised cattle and poultry are treated, with barely room to move in their confined existance. Shame on you hot-house types who try to put false guilt on honest hunters, who spend an honest dollar, for the chance, and enjoyment of the hunt and if chance, and God permits , to bag clean game in the natural environment. mik, Pa Hunter..!
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Originally posted by mike ross: existance. Shame on you hot-house types who try to put false guilt on honest hunters, who spend an honest dollar, for the chance, and enjoyment of the hunt and if chance, and God permits , to bag clean game in the natural environment. mik, Pa Hunter..! Well, along with Alex, I'm quite happy to be a "hot house" type and cannot see for the life of me the "enjoyment" of the hunt! Gospodi Pomilui! I think of St Francis and my patron, St Seraphim and their reverenve for all animal life and what they would think of such a thing.
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Originally posted by incognitus: The average priest presumably CAN go hunting - that is to say, he is capable of doing so. However, he MAY NOT go hunting - that is to say, he is forbidden to do so. One quite possible reason for this prohibition is the danger of killing a human being (it happens quite frequently in hunting accidents).
Incognitus the Culture Vulture
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by incognitus: [QB] The average priest presumably CAN go hunting - that is to say, he is capable of doing so. However, he MAY NOT go hunting - that is to say, he is forbidden to do so. One quite possible reason for this prohibition is the danger of killing a human being >>>>>>>>>>(it happens quite frequently in hunting accidents).<<<<<<<<<
>>>>If this reads how it sounds, I would get the idea that many are gunned down by hunting, BUT in fact this is another mass (progressive/liberal) media myth, to discredit gun owners. In PA on opening day of deer season there are as many as near a million armed citizens with hunting accidents in the single digits and not all are fatalities. If you took the same stats and applied them to the motorcycle, or automobile, they should have been banned decades ago. But, it is trendy and cool for those Hollywood types to be so elitist as to decide for us how to spend our time and money. This sounds to me like that earlier post about the Nobles and their cronies, only allowed to hunt, except now it's Madam Hanoi Jane, and that ilk who tell us 'unwashed peasants' what to do. Just my 2 rubles, mik
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Just to add my $0.02 worth...
I own a handgun and a rifle. Neither is used for hunting anything other than paper targets. Personally, I find hunting very distasteful (I don't even like the taste of venison). However, there is nothing that would preclude a bishop, priest or deacon from being a hunter.
Fr. Deacon Edward
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Dear Friends,
My position is not to ban hunting for laity at all - please let not anyone misunderstand me!
Nor do I wish to get involved in the decidedly American issue of the right to bear arms, to shoot and kill things etc.
And the only things I hug are people and furry dogs and cats!
Nor do I have any power to excommunicate or defrock clergy who choose to hunt and kill animals.
It is simply not in keeping with the priestly and monastic vocations to hunt - if someone can show me how Church and Patristic teachings contradict this, I am ready to learn.
But the question has been raised about the difference between hunting down animals and what goes on in slaughterhouses.
The inhumanity of slaughterhouses in general is a separate issue and does not really go into the issue of clergy involvement as with hunting.
The point is that if we need to buy meat, there are stores aplenty that can supply one.
To go out and do additional killing of animals is really completely unnecessary, unless one lives in a culture where hunting is a daily part of human survival.
More importantly, hunting or the deliberate killing of animals is a "sport" whether or not one chooses to eat one's kill. How the killing of animals can be considered a sport, namely hunting, is simply beyond the pale.
The church has not yet pronounced on such a sport, even though it has on boxing, calling it "immoral."
But for clergy to engage in such a sporting activity whose sole purpose is the unnecessary killing of animals cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, be considered in keeping with their vocation.
And monastics have absolutely no business engaging in this 'sport' since, in the Eastern Church, they are supposed to abstain from all meat always.
To go out into our beautifuly natural environment to shoot down one of God's creatures for the "thrill" of the chase and of the hunt is immoral and really quite sick.
Up here, we have recreational camps where bears are baited, are enticed into enclosed areas and are then shot by hunters who then pose to have their picture taken etc.
Most of the hunters who attend such camps are American tourists.
Yes, the American Constitution guarantees the Americans' right to bear arms.
The world knows that Americans know how to kill and make war.
Why you need to prove yourselves in this department over and over again is beyond comprehension.
Alex
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I have never been hunting in my life, I'm not a particularly good shot, and could never be bothered. I do not, however, find it immoral or sinful.
Alex, I would be careful labeling as sinful things that you might disagree with or not understand for cultural reasons. Of course, some things, I beleive, may be considered universally as beyond tolerance. I would include dog fights, bear baiting etc in that category. Not simple hunting though, specially not when the hunter aims to eat what he kills. I find nothing wrong with it, in fact I think it does people good to kill what they eat at least once in their life so that they fully understand how these things work. I did so once, with a duck...
Did none of you read Don Camillo? Or even watch the film? I'm not saying all priests should be like him, but we certeinly need some to be. Surely a priest can be an Icon of Christ in many different ways. Christ ate meat which was slaughtered ritually, and he encouraged others to fish... is fishing less inhumane than hunting? Why?
Finally, I believe you are incorrect when you say that the church has oficially tought that boxing is immoral. As far as I know, the only thing to that effect was an editorial in a catholic magazine which criticized the professional boxing industry. Quite different as I'm sure you will agree. The same article made a point of not placing amateur boxing, where the fighters are not exploited at great danger to their health and for the proffit of others, in the same bag.
I remember because I practiced boxing for a while (not actual fighting, but just the physical workout and technique part) and was interested in that discussion. If I am mistaken I would be very surprised, but please inform me.
And after this long post, just thank me for not having got started on bullfights...
God bless!
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I don't think that "sport" hunting and bear baiting are what this post is supposed to be about. Here in SE Missouri many people hunt. But, they always eat what they kill. Before the modern era, that's the kind of meat that people ate. They ate wild game. The cows were for milk and pulling the plow (other animals did that as well) and chickens were for egg laying. Our Euro ancestors had not as much grazing land as that which exists in the "Wild West" so they ate venison, fowl, and fish that they had to catch themselves. Having written that, the debate is whether or not the Eastern Canons allow a priest to hunt. I bet that if they do they also prohibit him from slaughtering a domestic animal as well. If they prohibit him from clebrating the Divine Mysteries because he killed someone legitimately in self-defense, then they probably do prohibt him from hunting and slaughtering as well. That would not prohibit him from eating what others have killed though. Be nice to your priest share your harvest!!! PS In fact, here in our small town, hunters will donate a good portion of their deer, turkey, and squirrels to the Ladies of Charity Food Pantry for distribution to the poor--of which we have plenty since this is a heavily poverty stricken area, especially in East Perry County where at least 50% are on welfare. 
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I don't think those Canons apply to all the Eastern Churches - for example, the Armenian Apostolic (and I presume the Armenian Catholic) Church celebrates a remnant of Jewish worship. Outside the courtyard of the Church, a lamb is slaughtered in the Kosher way on Good Friday - if I am not mistaken, by the priest. Of course, I don't think this is practiced in the US. Edit: I found an obscure article on the Blessing of Madagh: Window Quarterly Vol. 2, No. 4, 1992 Copyright 1992
[Permission is granted to use, print, reproduce this article provided the following acknowledgment is given: From Window Quarterly 2, 4 (1992); ACRAG c. 1992.
***
A Sacrifice of Praise: Blessing of the Madagh
by Michael Findikyan
A ceremony which is unique to the Armenian church is the ritual of the Blessing of Madagh. In this ceremony an animal such as a chicken, dove or lamb is brought to a special stone altar in the courtyard of the church. There the priest blesses salt, feeds it to the animal and offers special prayers, psalms and hymns. Then the animal is led away to a separate building where it is slaughtered. The ritual, which because of the ignorance and apathy of the officiating clergy has been abbreviated and ritualized to the point of meaninglessness, has become the victim of the same fate as the slaughtered beast. According to current pietistic customs, after the brief ceremony, the person offering the madagh rushes home with the meat of the sacrifice and gives a portion of it to each of seven neighbors. After that, they cook the remaining meat and host a festive (and sometimes raucous) day-long celebration with the participation of relatives, friends and neighbors. This ritual is very common in Armenia, where people offer a madagh sacrifice as a pious gesture on various occasions: upon the baptism or wedding of a child, on a birthday, to honor a special guest, or as a memorial to a loved one on the anniversary of his death. But visitors to Armenia are regularly horrified and repulsed when they witness the seemingly barbaric ritual, so unlike the decorous ceremonies they have seen in the Armenian Church in the west. Others remember the universal Christian teaching that Christ's death on the cross became the final and ultimate sacrifice, rendering any others superfluous. They accuse the Church of perpetuating an obsolete Jewish custom, thereby denigrating the saving act of Christ and the entire new covenant. Indeed, this ambivalence regarding the madagh reaches back to at least the time of St. Nersess the Gracefilled (11th century), who found it necessary to devote a portion of his famous pastoral encyclical to defending Madagh against the attacks of those who called it a "Jewish sacrifice." At the same time he corrects errors which had crept into the performance of the ritual. To determine whether such objections are legitimate, one need only turn to the words of the rite itself. First, however, it is essential to understand the concept of sacrifice as witnessed in the Old Testament.
ATONEMENT BY SACRIFICE According to Jewish understanding as revealed in the Old Testament, the one God dwells among his people Israel and in return for his promise of blessings, he expects above all their absolute acknowledgement that he alone is God. This they must demonstrate by unwavering obedience to his will. The first commandment makes this clear: "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods besides me." [Ex 20:2-3] A transgression is therefore dangerous not so much in itself, but rather because it represents a lapse in obedience which calls into question the community's absolute allegiance to God. Consequently, to become reconciled with God, a sinner must make atonement for his transgressions. This is much more than "paying for your sins." It means that in the wake of his aberrant behavior, the transgressor must do something to once again prove beyond any doubt his utter fidelity to God. Offering a sacrifice is the only way this can be done. When one takes something of great value and offers it to God for His sole use, this is a radical and unmistakable, ontological affirmation of one's allegiance to God. When Abraham, following God's instructions, took his son Isaac to a mountain, gathered wood. laid it on him and "took in his hand the fire and the knife, "Abraham was prepared to make the ultimate ontological demonstration of his total commitment to the One who said to him, "Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love...and offer him...as a burnt offering..." [Gen 22:2] There is no other rational explanation why a man would kill and burn his own son: Either he is lunatic, or he actually believes in the voice of Him who instructed him to do this. The Old Testament is replete with examples of individuals-- and at times the entire nation--making animal sacrifices to God to atone for their sins. The opening of the book of Leviticus,which is appointed to be read during the madagh ceremony, describes the manner in which a person should make offerings to the Lord: "If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer a male without blemish; he shall offer it at the door of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the Lord...and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. Then he shall kill the bull before the Lord; and Aaron's sons the priests [the "Levites", hence "Leviticus"] shall present the blood, and throw the blood round about against the altar that is at the door of the tent of meeting. And he shall flay the burnt offering and cut it into pieces; and the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire on the altar, and lay wood in order upon the fire; and Aaron's sons the priests shall lay the pieces, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire upon the altar...And the priest shall burn the whole on the altar, as a burnt offering, an offering by fire, a pleasing odor to the Lord." [Lev 1:3-9] Blood was considered the seat of life, and throwing the blood around the altar was understood to be an essential element of the ritual of sacrifice for atonement. More important, however, is the notion that the animal to be offered was "without blemish." (Madagh means literally soft, tender, delicate, young; these describe the kind of animal which is suitable for sacrifice). Offering a deformed or sick animal to God would not be a true sacrifice, and would amount to a half-hearted affirmation of God. To be effective, the one offering a sacrifice must choose a prized possession (as Abraham did), slaughter it at the altar of the One God (thereby dedicating it to him) and then after giving a portion to the officiating priests, burn the remains totally and completely, thereby assuring that God is the sole beneficiary of the sacrifice. No part of the animal may remain, and/or be eaten or used in any way. This is the power of the ritual. To destroy an animal (or other prized possession) and effectively "waste" it is absurd. The only other explanation is that the person destroying the animal is not wasting it, but dedicating it to an unseen but living deity, and ipso facto affirming his fidelity to that deity. Note that God has no particular need for charred animal carcasses; but he is pleased by the faith affirmation of those who make sacrifices in his name.
CHRIST'S ETERNAL REDEMPTION Of the five scripture readings appointed to be read during the ceremony of the Blessing of Madagh, three of them deal with the traditional Old Testament use of atoning sacrifice (Lev 1:1-9; 2Sam 6:17-19; Is 56:6-7). But the prescribed New Testament readings make it clear that even though the Madagh ceremony is rooted in the sacrificial rituals of the Old Testament, however it does not at all contradict or in any way minimize Christ's ultimate sacrifice on the cross. The Epistle to the Hebrews includes the most explicit assertion of Christ's redemptive sacrifice in the New Testament: "But until Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent...he entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to
serve the living God." [9:11-14] The Blessing of Madagh ceremony includes a passage from the end of this argument which suggests that the emphasis of Madagh is not atonement for sins, but rather worship and charity: "Through [Jesus Christ] let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name. Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God." [Heb 13:15-16] Madagh is the actualization of these two mandates: "Offer up a sacrifice of praise," and "share what you have." Indeed this is confirmed by the prescribed gospel reading from Luke: "He also said to the man who had invited him, "When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your kinsmen or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just." [14:12-14] It is clear that the compilers of this rite have made it their duty to affirm the traditional use of animal sacrifice, while providing a different purpose for the ritual. This is proven beyond any doubt in the prayer of blessing.
SHADOW OF TRUE SALVATION The author of the prayer clearly recognizes that the slaughter of animals is not expected by God and is no longer efficacious for the atonement of sins. He affirms that God has no "need" for a sacrifice, or anything else, when he addresses God as the "Saviour who lacks nothing." He also quotes Psalms 50 and 51 in which God rejects animal sacrifices in favor of "a broken heart and a humble spirit." Though the prayer establishes that in former times God was pleased by the sacrifices offered by mankind, such as the sacrifices of Abel, Noah and Abraham, nevertheless true salvation results from Christ's coming into the world and the tradition of offering animal sacrifice is a mere "shadow of the true salvation to come." Nevertheless, avowing all of this, the author boldly beseeches God to receive this sacrifice the same way he accepted the sacrifices of our forefathers, "as a burnt offering of rams and bulls and as ten thousand fattened lambs." But again in the next breath the prayer declares that we will not rejoice in this sacrifice, but "in your salvation," in "the spotless faith of the Holy Trinity," and in the "power of the sign of your all-conquering cross." Therefore we have in this prayer a confession of the power of sacrifice to please God with the acknowledgement that salvation comes only from Christ. We must conclude that in Madagh, the Armenians have preserved what they consider a radical act of faith affirmation. Standing with Christ on the ephemeral bounds of the old and new covenants, they utilize the ritual of animal sacrifice for its supreme ontological value as an indisputable demonstration of faith and worship, and simultaneously they make a definitive and eloquent confession of Christ as saviour. In this sense, the rite is a real tour de force. Furthermore, the New Testament readings indicate that the emphasis in this rite is not on the slaughter of animals, much less for the atonement of sins. Instead, there is a clear emphasis on charity. Clearly the meat from the sacrifice is intended to be fed to "the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind." Unlike the Jewish sacrifice, there is no evidence in this rite to suggest that slaughtering the animal is anything more than the necessary means to this end. It seems gruesome to many only because our sterile modern western culture insulates us from the vivid details of what is, for most of the world, a daily and rather mundane task.
MADAGH IN MILWAUKEE? In the Armenian Churches of the United States, the rite of Madagh has been reduced to the serving of dainty boiled lamb finger sandwiches after the Divine Liturgy on April 24, in commemoration of the martyrs of 1915. As such, the modern-day ritual lacks what we have found are the two essential elements of the ceremony, personal sacrifice and charity. It follows that in this guise, the ceremony is equally anemic as an act of affirmation of faith in God. Instead of striving to preserve the original spirit and purpose of the ritual, we have mindlessly preserved its physical elements, which, in twenty-first century America, are ripped out of their intended context. What is needed is a creative reunification of ritual and context. It is not necessary to slaughter animals on the steps of the Armenian Church in Milwaukee, Fresno or Montreal. What matters is that the donation be a sacrifice. In the same way that in former times a person sacrificed an "unblemished" young animal, the meat of which is food for many days, and the fur of which is clothing for many people, likewise today, a Madagh offering must have such value that the person offering it feels the loss of that which he has given up. In sacrifice, the hurt of loss is transformed into the joy of giving and of pleasing God. Beyond the sacrifice itself, the gospel passage from the rite declares that all the fruits of the sacrifice must be given to "the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind..." No part should be enjoyed by "your friends or your brothers or your kinsmen or rich neighbors." These deserve our charity as well, but the fruits of Madagh are reserved for those who "cannot repay you." Finally, sacrifice and charity come together when standing before the altar, the offering is made to God reading the words of the prayer. Recently five students went to a grocery store and pooling their limited money, they bought 40 pounds of chicken. That night, with great care they washed the chicken pieces, placed them on baking sheets, flavored them with spices and baked them. Later they wrapped each piece individually and placed them all in large cardboard boxes. The next evening they brought the boxes to church, and placed this sacrifice at the foot of the holy altar. Standing reverently in the quiet peace of the darkened church, they read aloud the appointed passages from Leviticus, from 2 Samuel, and from Isaiah and following those, passages from Hebrews and the Gospel according to Luke. One of them then stepped forward, in the midst of the saran-wrapped offering, and read the words of the prayer: "...Receive from us by your mercy this gift, for the pleasure of your all-powerful will. Receive, O Lord our loving God this gift which we have promised and pledged to you...Receive, O provident God this sacrifice which we lift up and offer to you...Receive it, O compassionate Lord and liken it to the blessed offerings of the holy forefathers..." Having made their offering, they proceeded downtown, where they fed those "who cannot repay you."
***
PRAYER OF MADAGH
Almighty God, you are praised by the highest heavenly orders and you are worshiped by those of the earthly realm, O God the Word, with the Father and the Holy Spirit. In the beginning you imprinted the shape and example of the good things to come. For although mankind fell from his rightful place in paradise by the instinctive artifice of the crafty deceiver [Satan], who made promises of noble glory, nevertheless when mankind multiplied and became numerous upon the earth, you were pleased by the pious deeds we offered to you as sacrifices upon the altar.
Like the sacrifice of Abel, who by being sacrificed, was called just; and Noah, when he left the ark, offered there a fragrant oblation to you for God. And Abraham, being tested, offered the true burnt offering and typified your incorruptible death on the cross. And therefore, O Lord our beneficent God, we ask and beg you, receive from us by your mercy this gift, for the pleasure of your all-powerful will.
Receive, O Lord our loving God this gift which we have promised and pledged to you in our affliction, when we called to you and you saved us.
Receive, O provident God this sacrifice which we lift up and offer to you, O Saviour who lacks nothing, whose mercy and compassion are incomprehensible and infinite.
Receive [it], O compassionate Lord and liken it to the blessed offerings of the holy forefathers, and dissociate it from the false sacrifices and pagan burnt offerings of satanic idolatry.
By Moses your holy and blessed prophet you commanded your people Israel to offer you burnt offerings. And by other holy ones, [you commanded that] animals be brought to the door of the tent of meeting before the Levite priests. By placing their hand upon [the animal] and and letting its blood flow upon your holy altar, O God, transgressions were forgiven and prayers were answered. But this was [only] a shadow of the true salvation to come, which was granted to us by your coming into the world.
For you yourself, O most-merciful and beneficent Lord, by your prophetic spirit, said through your prophet, 'I do not accept your fattened bulls . Rather offer to God an offering of blessing, and willfully offer a bloodless offering--a broken heart and a humble spirit, which God will not despise" [Ps. 50:9; 51:17].
But now, we sinners who are unworthy fall down before your compassion with humble hearts and we beg you for the great love [you showed to] your beloved ones, our fathers.
Look down upon this our offering and receive it from us as a burnt offering of rams and bulls and as ten thousand fattened lambs.
Answer our prayers, O Lord, so that we not be put to shame before our enemies. But rather let us delight and rejoice in your salvation.
For if by your gaze you can weigh all the mountains and the hills and the fields; and you hold heaven and earth in your hand, and you are seated in the highest heights upon the throne of the cherubim and hell is not invisible to you; and if giving you all the four-footed beasts and all the animals [in the world] is still not sufficient as a burnt offering to you, then how do we dare to offer [you] a sacrifice?
But you, O Lord, were pleased to become incarnate for us, and by your holy apostles you taught us the spotless faith which is the Holy Trinity, by which you made us worthy to be called brothers and sons by your incorruptible body and blood, O God the Word. Now, therefore, O miraculous Lord, receive from our hands this gift of sacrifice by the intercession of the holy Mother of God, and by the power of the sign of your all-conquering cross which we worship continually.
And by the prayers of the holy apostles and prophets and the blessed martyrs who shed their blood in return for your blood, O Lord, grant the petitions of those who make this offering and grant them forgiveness of their sins. Increase the flocks and the herds and all animals and the prosperity of your servants. Make the clouds rain sweetly upon our fields and grant the fruit of profit, and dispel from us the snares of Satan.
So that standing here in piety and in your pleasure, we might be worthy to meet you when you are revealed in your glory on that awesome day when you come again from heaven to apportion [to us] according to our works. For you are worthy of glory, dominion and honor, now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
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