www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Is the Orthodox Church Apostolic?

[Talking to a Roman Catholic about my new found fervor for the Orthodox faith, I was handed this URL to a web site that he told me to visit to discover the 'real' truth.
Since I am still learning much about Orthodoxy, I was wondering if anyone could check out this article and let me know of its validity if any.]

Since you were given a URL -
Perhaps to balance things out, or get The Orthodox perspective, you might want to access -

http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/papacy.html

The excerpts are from a book called 'The Papacy' and was written by a French Roman Cathlic priest who initially set out expose Orthodoxy by studying the history of the Church and ended up converting.

OrthoMan

http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/papacy.html

The excerpts are from a book called 'The Papacy' and was written by a French Roman Cathlic priest who initially set out expose Orthodoxy by studying the history of the Church and ended up converting.

Abb� Guett�e? I haven't read The Papacy but have seen it for sale at ROCOR shops both at its HQ in New York* and at Jordanville.

How devious of the webmasters! Talk about taking something out of context! Just like the Madlyn Murray O'Hair story above in this thread.

*Pretty good book selection otherwise. For icons, vestments and liturgical hardware, I recommend the Sofrino basement shop at St Nicholas' Cathedral (Moscow Patriarchate) nearby on 97th Street. They've got good Slavonic prayer books and fine paperback catechetical material in Russian too.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Bless me a sinner, Reader Serge!

You know, I'm getting to like you more and more, if that is possible!

Does the shop you mentioned carry Sofrino icons? Would you have its address?

Alex

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Thank you all for very genuine and realistic answers!

I am also especially thankful to Orthoman for providing me with an excellent link which I devoured in it's entirety.

Oh and Dr. Alex, I rather enjoy your writing style. Do you perhaps have any books or works published? I would be very interested in reading them! While on the subject of sociology, do you have any good book recommendations on Orthodox or Catholic sociology?

Toodles,
Dr. Bob

With my fingers held as a layman, + the blessing of the Lord!

Alex, yes, indeed, St Nicholas' Cathedral carries a dazzling selection of Sofrino icons, including my biggest icon, St Sergius with his life in panels along the edges — it's one of those wonderful gold-leafed paper icons mounted on cardboard, about 20 inches long (50 cm?), that looks incredibly costly but is only about $15 (recently, 5 x 7-inch ones went for about a US dollar apiece in Russia). There also are more expensive ones glued to wood, and small ones mounted to wood for most favorite Orthodox patron/namesake saints.

15 East 97th St. between 5th Avenue and Madison;
New York, NY 10029 USA
Train #6 or "F' uptown to 96th Street
Tel.: (212) 876-2190 (9.00 a.m. to 2.00 p.m.)

Iconstore
(212) 348-7746
iconstore@yahoo.com
Manager: Rodion

http://oldworldrus.com

Bless me a sinner, Reader Serge

Thank you, thank you, thank you . . .

Did I mention how grateful I am?

Alex

Serge,

regarding, http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/papacy.html

I am all for the Orthodox and I believe they are Apostolic and the True Church. However, of the early church fathers that this website post are they taken out of context. I am mean the page does lay down a good foundation.

Blessings

Serge,

regarding, http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/papacy.html

I am all for the Orthodox and I believe they are Apostolic and the True Church. However, of the early church fathers that this website post are they taken out of context. I am mean the page does lay down a good foundation.

Blessings

I don't understand, aRomanCatholic@Work. Did you think I was promoting that site? No. There are interesting quotations on it but OrthoMan pointed out the whole excerpt on that page is taken out of context.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Dear Alex,

Now that Reader Serge has given you detailed directions to that store in Manhattan, and knowing your penchant for all kinds of religious merchandise, should I expect you to be travelling in our neck of the woods any time soon? I live only a mere thirty minutes (by train) from the wonderful island...

Dear Catholicos,

If I do, I'll let you know because I'd like to meet your lady-friend, give you my blessing and all that . . .

Dinner is on me, just make it an expensive restaurant. We could go to the Russian Tea Room for Blintzes (I capitalise the "B" because I hear they are very, very good).

While there, we could drink to Reader Serge's good health, if he'd like to come along. I'd love to get a closer look at that beard. Don't you just love ecumenism?

And never mind about what OrthodoxyorDeath is saying about Mar Dioscoros.

I think he has "OOD'd" on fundamentalist theology . . . (Kidding, kidding).

And if Dr. Bob is around, we could take him out and show him how much fun believers really have.

God bless you, wonderful Friend in Christ!

Alex

Hi Dr. Bob,
I found it interesting that the person contradicited himself in the first two paragraphs. Right away, it shows he doesn't know what he is talking about.
Each one of the partriarches(sp-location)are from one of the apostles, so how could they not be apostolic. And since Christ gave these authorities to them for the building up of the church, their orders continued.
A term used in the Melkite Church is "first among equals," when refering to the pope.
Also it is interesting that he or she is using "Radio Replies." They are a set of three books from radio broadcasts by two priest,our set is packed so I can't tell you their names, and if I remember right they are from the '30's or 40's I believe. They were for apologetics and are good, but they represent the attitude of that time, and need to be judged accordingly. I feel that I could find another resource to use, if I was trying to convince an Orthodox person of the vallidity of Rome.
Speaking of Rome, Constatninople was the new Rome. Again, a contradiciton.
My computer is showing illegal orperation, got to go...
Well to the forum, and welcome to God's family. I know heaven is rejoicing in your conversion.

Rose

Alex, you're on!

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Dr. Bob,
The best Text that gives an introduction to the Orthodox Church is that of Timorthy Ware's THE ORTHODOX CHURCH. Timothy Ware is now Bishop Kalistos (Ware) and is the professor of Eastern Studies at Oxford University in England, I believe. His text is seen by most as the best introduction to the eastern Orthodox Church in modern English. His bibliography would give you additional resources as well. he is the author of many other books that are available from Light and Life Books (look up on internet for address).
Penguin Press publishes the paperback,THE ORTHODOX CHURCH.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

Dr. Bob:

Allow me to put another spin to your query. But first, a bit of "history."

Up to 1054 (the latest date partisans on either side seem to agree on as the "last" schism between Catholicism and Orthodoxy), there was no such thing as the Catholic Church nor the Orthodox Church: the Church was simply called (you got it!) the Church, the word being attributed to Jesus Christ himself in Matthew 16 when He established His earthly Kingdom. Although some early Fathers in the 2nd Century referred to the Church as the Catholic Church, to characterize its universality, and to the practice of the Catholic faith as orthodox (right; pure; unadulterated) and the Creed specifies the 4 marks of the true Church as "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic," neither side claimed (or could claim) exclusive patrimony on the true and original deposit of faith during the 1st millenium of the Church's existence.

Post-schism, the problem of disunity gradually deepened and became "unsolvable." So, the universal Church was "divided" into Rome and New Rome, into Latin and Greek, into the West and the East, into Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Catholicism traces its roots to St. Peter, who founded the Church in Rome, and Orthodoxy (of Byzantium) to St. Andrew, St. Peter's own blood brother. How more apostolic can you be!

Zoomed back into the present and you will be bombarded with ever increasing claims, often conflicting, of "true-ness" or "more true-ness" from one against the other and vice versa, thus:

If we were to liken Christendom as our solar system, the Catholics would equate themselves to the Sun, as the center, where everybody else revolves around it (preferably in unison) tugging each planetary Christian world into its magnetic field. With more than 1 billion faithful worldwide, Catholicism could, and tend to, justify this scenario, numerically-wise.

On the other hand, the Orthodox would counter that both the Catholics and the Orthodox, and all the rest of Christendom, are all mere planets of the Sun=Christ, the light of the worlds, and theirs exclusively is Mercury, smaller (compared to Catholicism or even to Protestantism) but nearest to the Sun. This "nearness" thus keeps the Orthodox in the bosom of "pure" faith and qualifies them to be the true "messengers" of God.

But for me, I would soon forget the above analogy and consider Catholicism and Orthodoxy as two sides of the same coin, each conjoined to form a single image of a true Christian. So, Dr. Bob, take your pick because you will not go wrong. But if you desire to have both, you have come to the right place: embrace Byzantine Catholicism, the fusion of the best of Catholicism and Orthodoxy!

As to the other 2 remaining marks of the true Church :"One,...Catholic...", well, they are for another day.

AdmG

Actually both sides seem willing to admit that 1204--the sack of Constantinople--was when the final schism happened.

Of course there were several reunion attempts.

1054 was only a schism between Rome and Constantinople.

anastasios