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I keep reading here about "latinization". Usually it is extremely negative. This last Wednesday i attended a Roman Catholic Stations of the Cross. Why? For two reasons 1/ I wanted to experience what everyone was getting huffy about and 2/ The Byzantine priest failed to return my call with the time that Presantified Liturgy was going to be held. I was in a different location (But that is a whole other discussion).

Concerning the Stations of the Cross I thought the service was wonderful. Really made me realize and think about what our Lord and Savior suffered on our behalf. You did not have to be a rocket scientist to understand it.
It was straight forward and to the point. Just a beautiful service.

I am really in awe of the indepth knowledge of many of the posters on this forum. But at the same time some assume that everyone has the same level of interest and the same level of intelligence to study and understand the the Eastern traditions.

You will not get an argument from me that the Eastern tradition is beautiful. But I must say the Stations of the Cross were just as beautiful as any of the Eastern traditions.

Why can't we share each others experiences and learn from each other. This way we could understand each other.

I wonder if any of those who are critical of Latin services every did the Stations of the Cross in Jerusalem?

Dear Little Green Coat,

I am truly glad that you found the Stations meaningful and I most certainly agree with you that the Eastern tradition is filled with beauty.

I am drawn to this forum precisely because there are so many committed Christians who love and understand their faith and I am glad, too that all of us, East and West, are grounded in traditions that offer us the communal support of shared histories and traditions.

Because of the size of the Latin church there are, of course, many members whose awareness of what the Church really teaches is at different levels. Because some Roman Christians have, out of ignorance I hope, sometimes displayed a false attitude of "superiority" towards the East I fully understand why Eastern Christians are eager to live in fidelity to the Eastern way. This forum will go a long way to educating Westerners about the Christian East.

In Christ's Love,

Khrystyna

The question is not about the validity or beauty of the practice of the Stations. As a Ukrainian Catholic subdeacon I respect the Stations and the medidations they facilitate about the passion of our Lord. But I also realize that this is a Latin devotion.

The Byzantine tradition has its own very unique beautiful liturgical traditions for Fridays of the Great Fast, whether it be Liturgy with Presanctified Gifts and/or Great Compline in the Slavic tradition or Small Compline with the Canon and Akathist to the Theotokos in the Greek tradition.

The point is that we as Catholics of the Byzantine tradition should be fostering our own unique manifestations of our Byzantine liturgical tradition rather than borrowing those outside of the organic development of our Byzantine tradition.

While I respect the Stations as beautiful expressions of the Latin Lenten liturgical life, I understand that Stations is of the Latin tradition and do not expect to go to a Latin parish and find Compline with the Akathist.

Likewise I would expect Latins to respect our own particular liturgical traditions with respect to the Fridays of the Great Fast. Fidelity to Catholic liturgical tradition, whether Eastern or Western benifits and enriches the universal Church.

I hope I am speaking for all the 'Latins' who read and post here when I say that I [ we ?] am/are most grateful for all that we learn about your Practice and devotions.

I have come to love the East - the Divine Liturgy is something that holds me in thrall every time [ and there aren't enough occasions for me ] I can be there and take part in it.

But to appreciate it all I have to learn about it and then experience it.

At the same time I feel that the more we learn about each other the better - and yes we have our own traditions and must stick with them. Each of us has something we can offer to others - maybe just to use themselves occasionally in private. Certainly I now use some prayers from the East daily - they have become part of my life and I can't imagine a time when I would not use them - but I still say my Rosary and make the Way of the Cross.

As for the beautiful meaningful Akathists I have come across here - well the West has nothing like them

Anhelyna

And I definitely find Stations most efficacious as well, a beautiful set of medidations on the Way of the Cross.

And Stabat Mater dolorosa - certainly one of the most beautiful hymns and meditations on the Mother of God in the entire Christian tradition.

We have much to offer each other of the riches of our own particular liturgical and spiritual traditions.

Dear Little Green Coat,
Glory to Jesus Christ!
You raised an interesting question on the Stations of the Cross devotion.
In the Latin Church, the Stations are a legitimate expression of Lenten devotions. That is because of the way the Latin Church counts the days of Lent.
All days from Ash Wednesday to Holy Saturday are counted as days of Lent, except for Sundays. Since this includes Holy Week, in which we observe the Passion of Our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, the entire Lenten period can encompass the Passion of Christ. Thus the Stations can be observed throughout the entire Lenten season in the Latin Church.
The Eastern Catholic Churches counts the days of the Great Fast (Lent) differently. The 40 days start 2 days before Ash Wednesday, Sundays are counted, and end the Friday before Lazarus Saturday (the Saturday before Palm Sunday).
Our Great Fast thus ends that Friday, and devotions during the Lenten season consist primarily of Presanctified Liturgies and the Old Testament readings. We stress prayer, fasting and acts of charity. It would be premature for us to include any service of the Passion of Christ in Lenten devotions. We reserve devotions of the Passion of Christ for liturgical services of Holy Week.
Holy Week is separated from the Lenten period. It is a time outside of time, existing in itself. During Holy Week our devotions relive the mystery of God�s merciful loving kindness when he suffered death and burial for our salvation, and the resurrection giving us hope for eternal life.
Hope this helps,
Deacon El

Dear friends,

I would like to add that the Way of the Cross is a quite recent Latin para-liturgical devotion with no particular liturgical form (there are hundreds of ways of saying the Way of the Cross) which can not be considered genuine expression of Western liturgical tradition for Lent and Holy Week in the same way as Ash Wednesday liturgy, Lenten Holy Mass without Glory and Alleluia and with the blessing with the bowing of head at the end of the Mass, Friday's fast, the Liturgy of the Hours, the ancient ceremonies for the Catechumens, and the old Officium Tenebrarum of the Holy Week. The Way of the Cross is just an expression, not the only nor the most ancient, of Western devotions for Lent and Holy Week periods. To compare the Way of the Cross with Byzantine Wednesday and Friday Presantified Divine Liturgies or Friday Akathist Hymn to the Mother of God is something completely wrong. Byzantine Presantified Liturgy can only be compared with Latin Good Friday After-noon Service (communion without Eucharistic sacrifice) and Akathist Hymn can only be compared with Latin Compline or the Saturday Latin Liturgy of the Hours (with a strong Marian character). Please do not confuse liturgy with liturgical or para-liturgical devotion. The question is why is the popularity of theses Latin modern forms o devotions so strong among in some Western countries and even among some Easterns? Why is more strong the influence of Latin recent devotions among some Easterns than the traditional liturgical expression of the Western Church? Why to prefer modern forms of devotions to the traditional liturgical offices, center of the prayer and of the sacramental life of the Church and much more rich from the theological and the ecclesological point of view? Religious emotion versus theological contemplation? Why so many people (non believers included)in Spain take part in Holy Week procesion and so few attend Good Friday Service, Holy Saturday Vigil or Easter Sunday Mass? How evangelical these popular devotions are? By the way do not forget the Way of the Cross, being a para-liturgical devotion, is not any more so popular in traditionally Catholic countries as it used to be, fortunately after II Vatican Council the Holy Eucharist and the Liturgy of the Hours and not the different devotions (do you remember that time when people used to pray rosary during Holy Mass?) are now again the center of the Liturgical life of the Western Church.

Yours in Christ
F

LGC,

Because many of us grew up with the Stations (I served them many times as an altar server) after Divine Liturgy on Fridays of Lent - when we were supposed to be celebrating Pre-Sanctified Liturgy. I also grew up being instructed to lead the people in rosary before Exposition and Benediction while ignoring Byzantine forms of Marian devotions or services. Never heard what an Akathist was until I left home. Our church had no iconostasis, but we did have a Marian and Joseph table on the sides with statues. The 'Our Lady of Grace' statue served as the focal point for novenas, rosaries, May Crowning, and many other Blue Army devotions. Instead of celebrating Mary's Dormition with a procession of her burial shroud, we met outside at the Fatima shrine for more rosary. We also had Living Rosary in the church with each child begin a 'bead'. Outdoor Stations were also done even at the local Mt. Carmel Shrine for those wanting more. And the Eucharistic Prayer was taken silently with a choir taking any responses so many can attentively continue praying the rosary during "Mass."

In all of this, LGC, I never heard what a Pre-Sanctified Liturgy was, nor an Akathist, nor a Moleben, nor Vespers (only a highly stylized one for Good Friday). We sang Russian choir music (because our own music was plainchant and often ignored) with supplementary hymns from Glory and Praise and Worship II. When I entered the seminary I didn't even know how to chant the Epistle. My Latin classmates, who DID attend Byzantine liturgies in their own hometown, chanted it for me. I was more at home in the Latin seminary chapel (at least for the first year) than in other churches of my own eparchy. But, of course, my parish was very large, it brought in a lot of money, the people didn't complain about the seemingly non-Byzantine atmosphere, and so it was never addressed or challenged by any overseer. Today, many of those children who once served as a beads in the Living Rosary are now attending Latin parishes.

If you think it is about Latin-bashing, or being negative, or the like, then I ask you to consider why, on these forums, these devotions continue to be the center of attention for discussion? Why do folks continue to bring them up to discuss? In the Byzantine Church we have the reading of the Passion Gospels. Why are there not the same number of threads with "Passion Gospels" in their titles as "Stations," "Rosary," "Immaculate Conception," and the like? Our litija service at festive vespers shares a common heritage with the Stations (at least that's what the now defunct Byzantine Leaflet Series pamphlets tell me). Nobody seems to get excited about Litija services - and as a possible context for chartiy drives. But these other topics continue being brought up and people wonder why some go negative. Do you think it is because those who bring them up do it to instigate litmus tests of Catholic faithfulness? Many of us have been challenged by such tactics similar to droplets of water torture.

It is constant and relentless.

What gets annoying is the conviction of some that when discussing Mary's life we discuss it beginning with her "Immaculate Conception" and "Bodily Assumption" while ignoring other possible approaches to the mystery or ontology of Mary. It is the same canned topic and allowable starting point. But many cannot discuss some things at the same level or approach when they are not even celebrated in our Church.

We all believe and know of the Passion of our Lord. All four Gospels address it in much detail. Not only do they get proclaimed in our churches during Holy Week, but all four Gospels (up to the Passion narrative) are prescribed to be read on the first three days of Holy Week.

But how much are these beautiful services discussed - or celebrated?

Don't mistake those who are exhausted with these things as being negative. It becomes a matter of negativity when one begins to realize that those who cannot discuss anything other than Latin devotions cannot discuss or promote anything that is our own tradition.

I am not anti-Latin. I believe the Catholic tradition encompasses all traditions expressed and celebrated in their particular communities. The Catholic Church is to the individual and particular traditions as the New Testament Canon is to the four unique Gospels (and their Passion Narratives). Marcion doesn't live here anymore.

I cannnot speak for the priest who did not return your phone call about Pre-Sanctified Liturgy. I also won't ask about the amount of planning that went into it either.

Joe

Dear Friends,

The Churches in East and West have been borrowing devotions from each other since time immemorial.

The rosary was central to St Seraphim of Sarov's spiritual practice, along with the Jesus Prayer, long after he received permission to leave off the Daily Office.

St Tikhon of Zadonsk practiced the Stations of the Cross in private - the only icons he had in his cell were representations of the Stations.

St Peter Mohyla "redid" the stations in the form of the Passions, which are a liturgical meditation on the Passion of Christ done throughout Lent.

Even Archbishop Innocent of Odessa, who wrote the Akathist to the Passion of Christ, based his work on the Stations of the Cross and on the Western devotion to the Five Wounds of Jesus.

John Mason Neale, who translated this text into English, includes the beginning prayers to the Five Wounds etc. (I have a copy) which were later discarded by Orthodox publications of it.

What I'm saying is that I just don't know what is purely "Eastern" or "Western."

I think there is less of a hard and fast distinction than we would sometimes like to insist upon.

Perhaps it is a question of liturgical framework, private vs public devotions and the like.

Alex

But *IN PLACE OF* the Pre-Sanctified?

What part of my post was not understood?

Excellent points, as usual Alex. It is never so clear cut with respect to "latinization" regarding devotions as we often like to make it. The Stations definitely are more in the "gray area" and do not fall into the same category as, say the Ruthenian/Ukrainian practice of Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament ("Supplikatsia") outside of the Divine Liturgy which was unabashedly and admittedly a very late almost direct borrowing from Latin practice introduced by the Basilians and which the Orthodox never really took hold of outside of the Divine Liturgy.

We have given aspects of devotion back and forth between East and West. And you bring up another excellent point with Mohyla's Strasti. These are absolute gems of meditation on the Passion, as is the Akathist to the Passion.

And since the Ukrainian Orthodox in Ukraine to this day have Stations as a public devotion, we shouldn't be too quick to hammer on a particular devotion as purely "Latin"...I know in Ukraine Stations are loved by Catholics and Orthodox alike.

I think the point is that as Byzantine Christians we should be fostering and preserving our own well-developed and very beautiful spiritual and liturgical traditions for the Great Fast (Presanctified, Great Compline, Compline w/Akathist, Akathist to the Passion, etc.) and not be too quick to imitate our Latin brethren simply for imitation's sake but rather share our riches with them. It's a great spiritual trade-off - they come to our churches for Presanctified and Great Compline and we visit them for Stations.

I think Matins with the 12 Passion Gospel readings is a gem too along with Royal Hours. But some of our churches no longer offer these services.

Joe, I always thought it was interesting that the Ukrainians keep the Passion Matins, usually anticipated on Thursday night, while the Ruthenians kept the Holy Thursday evening vesperal Liturgy on Holy Thursday.

I deeply love Strasti and look forward to it as much if not more than any other Holy Week service. The priest starts out with bright vestments and ends up for the last Gospels in dark vestments, the reversal of the vigil of Pascha. The stikhera and other texts for that service are so rich in the liturgical content of the Passion.

I guess something had to give in a packed liturgical week, and Passion Matins fell through for the Ruthenians while Holy Thurdsay vesperal Liturgy fell through for the Ukrainians.

Dear Cantor Joe,

Just because I got to go on a cruise, and you didn't, doesn't mean you have to take it out on me here!

I wasn't responding to what you wrote earlier - I was just thinking out loud.

I agree that paraliturgical devotions should never replace liturgy.

All I'm saying is that there are those Eastern Catholics and Orthodox who would like hard and fast distinctions between Eastern and Western spirituality measured in outward forms of devotion.

And I don't think it is possible to make such hard and fast distinctions always.

I never meant to impute motive, say what you've written was incorrect, or, in any way, say anything nasty about Cantor Joseph!

That I'm ignorant about so many things here is simply natural for me!

So I beg your forgiveness!

(And I promise not to rub it in about my sun-tan, the great food on board, and the beautiful islands!)

Alex

Diak,

Yes. One has to juggle between several parishes to make sure one attends the appropriate services as prescribed in the Typicon. Sometimes Good Friday vespers is not done, but instead Jerusalem Matins is anticipated on Friday night. Passion Matins is dumped or used to be celebrated in the evening, in place of vespers, whereas Paschal baskets are blessed before Resurrection Matins.. A real theo-liturgico-logistical nightmare. No ECF (Eastern Christian Formation) program can prepare one for such a quagmire. :p