www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Catholicism & Islam: worshipping the same "God"?

Dear Brothers & Sisters in Christ,

I have read a number of statements recently from Catholic Bishops and both John Paul II himself talking about Catholics and Islam "believing in the same God". This somewhat alarms me. I number of my Orthodox friends have referred to this as a criticism of the Catholic Church.

What does the Catholic Church mean when they say that Islam and Catholicism believe in the "same God". There is something in the Cathechism about it meaning that we acknowledge the muslims as believing in the faith of Abraham. What does that mean? Ie what do they mean by the faith of Abraham? Are we simply saying that the muslims believe in part of the truth faith?

Does anyone have any thoughts?

Also, what is the attitude of the Orthodox Churches to all this? Does anyone know of any websites where Orthodox leaders discuss the Orthodox Churches view on Islam and what they are prepared to recognise them as?

Thank you kindly in advance for your thoughts and consideration of my question.

Love in Christ, George.

Dear George:

All three of the great monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) worship the God of Abraham. There is one God and He alone is worshipped. In his Orthodox Theology Vladimir Lossky writes:
Edward, deacon and sinner


[This message has been edited by FrDeaconEd (edited 06-11-2001).]

Deacon Edward's quote certainly targets the philosophical underpinnings of theological method in determining what man can know of God.

I think what people in general miss (history of religion stuff!) is that the Jews were unique in their belief in one God and that there were absolutely no others, in contrast to their Greek, Roman, Babylonian and Egyptian neighbors. Christians, as descendants of the Jews, naturally hold to this same point. However, in acknowledging that Christ is both God and man, Christians part company from the Jews. The Christian approach is not the Old Testament understanding in which God is seen as totally "other", and therefore not-knowable.

Rather, the existence of Christ in this world (and His ongoing presence in the Church) opens the door to mankind's ability to 'deal with God' and not just stand in open-mouthed and blank-minded wonder. Christ both startled and angered His contemporaries when He told His followers to address God as "Father". This delivered a major kick in the pants to Hebrew theology; the Jews are given the privilege of knowing God's name (and I presume His social security number too), but were absolutely forbidden ever to utter it for fear of transcending into the realm of "Ha Shemayim", the One-Up-There.

The Islamics, base their theology more upon the Hebrew notion of approaching Divinity. The 'revelations' to Mohammed draw mightily upon Hebrew historical events and even the Hebrew theological understanding -- but have much less to do with Christians, except to integrate us into the whole framework by casting Christ as a prophet (as some Jews might be inclined to do), and honoring Mariam as a very holy woman. They, too, have the 'privilege' of "knowing God's name" (=Allah), but they, unlike their Jewish neighbors, have no reticence to call upon it, out loud and frequently.

Thus, as Deacon Edward points out, the understanding of the existence of "One God" is part and parcel of all three communities' understanding of God. And it all comes from the same historical human development. All three share the 'monotheistic' understanding that God is One, in contrast to other religions that admit of multiple divinities who oftentimes duke it out with each other much to the detriment of the human condition that depends upon these gods' favor for their well being.

So, it is certainly no problem for the Holy Father to acknowledge the historical reality that we are -- for better or worse -- organically and theologically related to Jews and Moslems. However, since both the Jews and Moslems have really strict laws that they are obligated to follow in order to make themselves justified before God, we Christians have been freed from "The Law" and are instead commanded to "Love God and to love our neighbors". While it demands that we pray and meditate on how to do this in a practical way in our daily lives, there is no doubt that we have it 'easier' in the sense that we don't have to become spiritual lawyers (or Saducees, or Pharisees, or imams or ayatollahs) constanting wondering how the law applies in a given situation. Following St. Augustine's aphorism: "Ama, et fac quod vis" ("Love and do what your heart tells you), we can stand before the One God without abject fear if we have truly done our best.

Blessings!

I do not believe Christians, Jews, and muslims worship the same god.

Jews and muslims worship a god who does not have a son, or a Holy Spirit that precedes from Him.

Christians worship one God in three Persons. The jews and muslims consider this idolatry and pagan.

Even though all three worship one god, our understandings of that god are so different that I don't see how we worship the same one.

Columcille

The problem is really one of understanding the nature of God.

Although the Jews were the first to receive the revelation of God, it was only a partial revelation (monotheism, but not Trinitarian).

Islam, on the other hand, is not a revealed religion, but it IS a monotheistic one. Their concept of God is seriously deficient form a Catholic perspective, and from a Jewish one. Nevertheless, they believe in one God, who created the universe, and is omnipotent.

Please check the following link for a statement from Pope John Paul II on the issue.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2MUSLM.HTM

Though it has the basic understanding of the One God, Islam stumbles twice due to two particular flaws:

Despite the fact that they do not acknowledge the Christian revelation regarding the Trinity, Muslims also explicitly reject it as their sacred text makes clear without any ambiguity or need for interpretation on our parts. The Koran lambastes what it perceives to be the Trinity in Christian eyes, and makes a definite and final judgement on who Christ was, a mere man but a great prophet.

In IC XC
Samer



[This message has been edited by SamB (edited 06-11-2001).]

Dear Columcille,

Your point is exactly the same that I have heard advanced by many traditional Orthodox priests.

One once said that Abraham himself worshipped a Tri-personal God (the Hospitality of Abraham etc.).

The Children of Israel understood the Word of God and the Spirit of God to be emanations of the Father. The Christian revelation understands the two as Divine Persons.

A Muslim conference that Archbishop Sheen once mentioned came to the conclusion that the best form of union with God would be Incarnation. I have also read this in Muslim publications.

May the Spirit and the Word bring us all closer together!

Alex

>>One once said that Abraham himself worshipped a Tri-personal God (the Hospitality of Abraham etc.).<<

Well, in fact he DID worship a Tri-personal God because Abraham made a covenant with God who IS the Trinity, after all.

I know the next comment isn�t going to be welcome, but� the fact is that BOTH the Jews and the Muslims also worship the Trinity because they worship the same God as Catholics do. Please note that I am NOT saying they have a concept of God AS Trinity, but they worship God Who is the Trinity.

>>The Children of Israel understood the Word of God and the Spirit of God to be emanations of the Father. The Christian revelation understands the two as Divine Persons.<<

I believe that some of the later Rabbi�s also had the concept of Torah existing from all of eternity with God, but not being God itself.

>>A Muslim conference that Archbishop Sheen once mentioned came to the conclusion that the best form of union with God would be Incarnation. I have also read this in Muslim publications.<<

This is quite fascinating. I have never run across this position before (although the study of Islam has never been high on my list of priorities). I wonder how this would fit into the unicity of wills that some of the Muslim mystics and philosophers believed in. Frankly, I am still at a loss for how Jesus is, according to the Koran, the eternal word of God but is NOT God.

Oh well.

Christ is in Our Midst!

As an Orthodox Arab Christian I cannot truly and honestly say that Christians and Muslims worship the same God lest I all into the heresey of relativism. We do not share the same Faith. However, we do acknowledge similiarities in that God is One. No Muslim would ever tell you that they believe in a Triune God. The denial of our Triune God would only indicate that the Muslims do not believe & worship as we do and/or they may be deceived living their own heresy. In my humble opinion Islam is an evil that does away with "God begetting", "Son of God", God in Christ,etc. It may not appear on the periphery as being evil but its essence is a denial of the Christian Faith. The fault for this Islamic confusion is no other than Satan (Shaitan) himself. Please pray for them because they do not know Christ is Lord and God. If they would open their hearts to our Triune God when they read the beginning Quranic verses "Bismallah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim" (In the Name of God, the Merciful and Compassionate") as being the only Triune God.
It's no different than saying "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal."

P.S. Everytime I attend an Arab/Muslim event where the speakers say "Bismallah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim" I come close to crossing myself without realizing it! Could you imagine the shock on their faces if I was the speaker and had crossed myself?!!! LOL

Dear Robert,

Yes, I too believe that this invocation is a Trinitarian one and have crossed myself in private at its mention!

I have yet to read a Muslim understanding of the Trinity which is the one we have. That could be part of the problem.

Salaam Alekum,

Alex

Dear Ignatius,

Excellent points!

Yes, just as Judaism understands the Word of God as an emanation from God, along with the Spirit of God, so too does Islam.

The Trinity is thus contained in "kernel" fashion in both monotheistic religions and we are actually closer than we think.

There is a book, "The Koran in the Light of Christ," which is very interesting.

The Franciscan Father and scholar who wrote it came to the conclusion that Muhammad should actually be considered a prophet by Christians much like David and Jeremiah are!

He said that he destroyed idolatry, brought a moral code and promoted the veneration of Jesus and His mother Mary (whose Perpetual Virginity he always defended).

He also wrote that Muhammad had fewer concubines than other Old Testament figures.

A fascinating work!

Alex

Points are considered seriatim.



OK. The Church Fathers of Vatican II have so much as said that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the God of Abraham. Read Nostra Aetate again.


I believe the standard rebuttal from the Moslems is "Allah is not one of three." Beyond that I cannot comment on the general attitude of Moslems to the doctrine of the Trinity.

As for the Jews - many of the rabbis of the Talmud, and later rabbis, wrestled with whether the doctrine of the Trinity was idolatrous (of course, from their point of view). Probably the most well known proponent of "Trinity-as-idolatry" was Maimonides. Closer to our time, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef (former Sephardic Chief Rabbi of Israel) held belief in the Trinity to be idolatrous, and so did (I believe) Rabbi Moshe Feinstein (probably the most authoritative Jewish legal scholar of his day).

However - the mainstream thought in Judaism today, including Orthodox Judaism, is that belief in the Trinity is a result of adding personages to the Godhead, and, while it is a belief Jews may not hold, it is not tantamount to idolatry.


Better check that at the door, Columcille. I believe there was a heresy, formally denounced by the Catholic Church, that claimed that the God of the Old Testament was not the God of the New Testament.

If the God of the Jews is not the God of the Christians, what does that say about the history, and historicity, of Christianity? What does it say about Jesus and our belief in Him?

-NDHoosier

[This message has been edited by NDHoosier (edited 06-13-2001).]

Dear NDHoosier,

With respect to your final point, I believe no one can deny that Jews, Muslims and Christians are all the children of Abraham, our Father in Faith.

However, I think Columcille's point on the way in which we see God is an important one and doesn't really contradict church teaching on the subject.

There is a qualitative difference, I believe, in a God who is a Solitary and a God who is Three in One.

Abraham did see God, as the scriptures state, as "three Men."

Clearly, he knew Who had come to dinner . . .

Also, one may believe in an imperfect or even wrong way in the one God.

One may even worship the true God in a wrong or idolatrous way.

The distinction between belief in one God and the differing prisms through which that one God is seen and believed in is an important one.

As one Christian theologian once put it, "Christians have a better religion than others do - even though Christians are no better than others." And again, "For what do we congratulate God for on the Feast of the Holy Trinity? We congratulate Him on not being a Celibate, but that He is One in Three."

Alex

On this point NDHoosier and I are in agreement. Might I suggest that the parable of the blind men and the elephant provides us with some insight into this problem. An abbreviated version:

One blind man feels the tail and claims the elephant is like a rope, another feels the trunk and claims an elephant is like a snake while yet another, feeling the leg, claims the elephant is like a tree. All valid statements based upon experience and observation, yet the elephant is none of those things.

Muslims, Jews and Christians have different understandings of God. These understandings do not affect God at all -- He remains what He is! Thus, if we all claim to worship the God of creation then we are worshipping the same God, even if our understandings may differ. In fact, if we use the apophatic theology of the east we then have to admit that God is not what we think Him to be, no matter what that is. As soon as we define what God is we diminish Him!

Edward, deacon and sinner

Bless, Reverend Father Deacon!

Agreed!

However, I think that the only way to God, for us, is through our own, albeit man-made, images.

And we become the God we worship.

It is entirely possible to worship God and, as a result of what we conceive Him to be, become something other than what He had intended.

We can worship the true God in such a way and then go out and commit sin and even atrocities in His Name.

Even our Lord warned us about those who will seek to kill us and who will think they are performing a service to God.

God doesn't inspire evil, but our (mis)perception of Who He is certainly can - and has.

Alex