www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Catholicism & Islam: worshipping the same "God"?

OK, I'd better get this cleared up before I get accused of religious indifferentism...

I am not claiming at all that the beliefs of Christians, Jews, and Moslems about God and His Nature are indistinguishable.

Let me phrase it another way, and I'm going to omit discussion of the Moslems because it simplifies my analysis (and then I can consider the Moslems later).

God revealed Himself to Abraham, offering him (Abraham) brit milah - the covenant of circumcision, promising him that his descendants would be more numerous than the stars. Isaac, Jacob, Jacob's sons, and Abraham's further descendants worshiped the God of Abraham.

Then God further revealed Himself by the giving of the Torah (first five books of the Bible - the Mosaic Law) after the Exodus. There was a radical change in the worship of the God of Abraham - now there were the laws of kashrut (kosher food), niddah (family and sexual purity), temple worship, and so on. The Israelites continued to worship the God of Abraham - but their understanding of God was certainly radically altered after the Sinai theophany and the giving of the Torah.

Enter Jesus. Now He alters our vision and understanding of God as only He can, for He IS God. He was an observant Jew all his life - thus affirming the tradition of his human ancestors - yet moving belief in a new direction - one that now understands God to be absolutely One and relatively Three. Did this mean that Christians started worshipping a new god? NO - but it did mean that the understanding Christians had of God was different than it had been under the Abrahamic or Mosaic covenants.

So yes - Christians and Jews worship the same God, but very differently because of our different beliefs about Him. We believe we have received the definitive revelation of God, God-become-man, who walked and talked with us, and died and rose for us. That doesn't mean that the Jews suddenly started worshipping a god who wasn't God.

As for the Moslems, they are much closer to the Jewish conception of God, so I think I can leave that at that.

Once again, I fear I haven't made my point as well as I ought, but I just don't think it's appropriate to speak of Jews and Christians as worshipping different gods (or Gods). It flies in the face of the historical and dogmatic development of Christianity.

--NDHoosier

Dear NDHoosier,

Agreed. But I think that we may only relate to God through the prism of our own understanding which is always imperfect.

To worship a God Who is solitary is different from worshipping a God who is a community of Three and Who is, at the same time, perfectly One.

If we think of God as being judgemental and harsh, then we will become like that (through no fault of God's).

If we think of Him as being loving, caring and forgiving, we will become like that as well.

Alex

Islam.

in fact Muhammad mixed the arab pagan tradition with jewish (diaspora's judaism) and christian (doscetist) elements. According to the moslems the Kuran is not the only sacred book inspired by God but the "next and last" revelation of God after the Torah and the Gospels. The main purpose of Muhammad's islam was the unification of all the religions.
According to the Kur'an, Christ is the messiah, a powerful man with the spirit of the truth who was created by God without a man. Mary is known as one of the most excelse and pure women and a whole "sura" or chapter is dedicated to her. Despite his holiness, Christ is not God, he's a great prophet who followed another great prophet whose name was Yehia (John the Baptist) but his mesasage of truth was not understood by the christians.
Muhammad knew a lot about the jewish religion (calendar, fests, bible and prophets)but very few about the christian religion and the rudimentary information he took about Christ came from an indirect contact with some gnostics and docetists from the Arabian Desert and some apocriphal texts (the gospel of the infance and the gospel of St. James).
According to the gnostic-doscetist heresy Christ was a spiritual being who taught the "secret of the knowledge" and the "spirit of the truth". He didn't die in the cross because when Simon (the father of Alexander and Rufus) took his cross, he replaced Christ and died instead of him.
Muhammad learnt this and wrote it in the Kur'an in a very simple way: "he didn't die in the cross, a similar man took his place".

However, we, the Middle Eastern Christians do not believe Muhammad had anything to do with the Quran (There is a priest in the region whose research suggests he never existed, but I don't accept his thesis). We generally think it was the monk al-Buhairah (In a thread long past, I erroneously posited a different name) who taught him everything he claimed he received as revelation. To us, he was just a lackey whose only contribution was his godless military muscle. The fellow was no sage. Plus, we think that more of the Quran was compiled with time and his followers had a role in all of this.



It was more the correction of all religions. Don't forget that it is claimed that the Jews and Nazarenes (as they call us) distorted the sacred texts entrusted to them and the correct orthodox doctrines. Jesus wasn't sent, as was planned before time, to redeem humanity; he was sent as a result of bad circumstances that the Jews had brought about, being the perversion of their religion and their disobedience. They were now obsolete and unfit to be the shining beacon of God's religion, and had to be replaced with Christianity which wiped the heavily accumulated dust off the shining glass of true religion. That was the fate of the Jews. Ditto to the Nazarenes, when they committed the same mistakes, and Islam was sent to correct them, but this time, it was to be a permanent fix-up and the seal of revelations and prophethood, guranteed to remain intact for all time.



And that is the threat of Islamic belief on our own. It doesn't deny the Christ. It claims him as its own, branding its followers true "christians" (ie. those who follow Christ), and us as charlatans. Christ will return on Judgement Day (yowm al hisaab) to break the Cross. What kind of false and diabolical "christ" is this? Not only isn't he our Christ, he's also got an axe to grind against Him and His instrument of redemption.



The author(s) of the Kuran incorporated a lot of Judaism along with its strict legalism, into the religion. (Hence the prohibition against pork). In addition, the Kuran absorbed the erroneus interpretations that its author(s) held about Christianity as they perceived it (their misunderstanding of the Trinity, for example). Aryans may have also had an influence in the Arabian peninsula. Sometimes I wonder whether the Kuran actually is distinguishing between the "Nasaraa" (Nazarenes) who are amongst the "People of the Book" and the Trinitarians who are outright idolators in their worship of Christ. To tell the truth, I believe that is not the case and that all who professed the Christ (heretics or orthodox) are considered the same in the Kuran's perception. They certainly have been by Muslims and religious clerics since the Aryans were no more in the East.


The Gospel of Barnabas denies the Crucifixion, and it is referred to by many Muslims apologists today. Today, the Muslim's disapproval or lack of understanding of the Crucifixion stems from his perception of it as a terrible end that God would not permit any of his prophets to experience. It is their basic disgust that would stem naturally from the story of the Crucifixion if not seen from the Christian viewpoint of redemption through death and Ressurection, and from their rejection of Him as the Son of God sent on a divine mission to redeem Adam's progeny.

In IC XC
Samer



[This message has been edited by SamB (edited 06-18-2001).]

Dear Samer,

Your post reminds me of the Muslim "heretic" Al-Hallaj who believed man to be an "incarnation" of God and who suffered crucifixion himself for believing that way.

Alex

Dear Alex,

Believe me, they've had a lot of heretics in their glory days, including two of the beacons of Arab achievement (good mascots for pan-Arabists), yet curse of orthodox Muslim fundamentalists, Ibin Sina and Ibin Rushd (Averroes and Avicenna), the Aristotelian philosophers (al-falasifa) whose kind the St. Augustine of Islamic Sufi ascetism al-Ghazali denounced as kafirs till his dying days.

Mind you, Islam as it exists today, has no room for falasifa in its clerical ranks. Pity. They denied what today is uniformly considered to be certain basic essentials of the Islamic faith.

In IC XC
Samer


[This message has been edited by SamB (edited 06-18-2001).]

True.
Today we can't talk about a "unified" islam because there are lots of different sects who wer influenced by other traditions. For example the "sufies" were mystic-gnostic christians who became muslims, the shi'is were zoroastrian (that's the reason they sill believe in the mahdi or messiah...the king Zaratustra), etc.

Despite the negative view we have of the curent islam, related to terrorism, fanatism and war, the islamic religion was very tolerant. When Spain was an arab califat, a lot of good things flourished: science, medicine, art..and the christian religion. The mozarabic school (arabized christians)had important contributions to the western christianity and were tolerated by the moslems. The jewish philosofers were succesful in the moslem Spain and the moslems didn't force anyone to convert.
Spain was a peaceful and prosperous place. On the contrary when the christians took the power they killed a lot of people and forced the moslems to become christians. The jews were expelled from Spain. The science and he medicine were almost forbiden by the medioeval church and then the "Santa Inquisicion" was founded.

Dear Samer,
I believe Muhammed had much to do with the making of the Quran with the collaboration of the monk Buhairah and his cousin a nestorian priest, Waraqa Ibn Nawfil. Waraqa is said to have known Greek and probably translated many Greek words into the Arabic as noted in the Quran. An example is the name of Jesus. The Muslims call Him in Arabic ('Isa) which may most likely be transliterated from the Greek (Eisos). Even the word for Bible in Arabic (Injeel) is from the Greek language. It's kind of funny how the God of the Arabic Quran borrowed from the Greek language. These Arabized Greek words have no meaning in the Arabic language. You ask a Muslim what does 'Isa & Injeel mean and they cannot tell you. Arab Christians know that the Semtic name of Jesus in the Arabic language is Yasou' not 'Isa and it means "Saviour". Muhammed was an intelligent, literate man in his days. The man had such a fascination about books writen by Jews and Christians. He always referred to the Christians and Jews as the People of the Books (Ahl al-Kitab) and the Quran as the Mother Book (Um al-Katib). This man also had a deep love for Arabic poetry and recitals. I am confident to say that he had a love for religious chanting especially when he listened to Christians and Jews chanting. I believe Muhammed's followers had much to do with the assembly of the various Surahs of the Quran. God knows if there were other Surahs and religious writings destroyed when the Caliph Othman standarized the Quran. There is a small history hidden in obscurity about the making and standarizing of the Quran. The Muslims are so confident that the Quran has been kept intact without alterations for 1400 years that there is no proof to discredit them because all the evidence was destroyed. Now it becomes my opinion. One thing I do know from experience is that Islam is an outright lie. The work of the Devil. There must never be any compromise with it. Arab Muslims and Christians may share many virtues, morals, culture, language, history but the dialogue ends on the nature of Christ. Christ is our Lord and God. Christ is a mere prophet to Muslims despite the Quran's referal to Him as The Word of God and Spirit of God. They have no concept of the Holy Spirit and falsely label it as the Archangel Gabriel. This is no doubt a wicked, perverse religion that is out to destroy the Church and Her teachings in Christ. May God's Kingdom come soon. Marantha.

Dear Robert,

Yes, thank you for your deeply thoughtful post!

I think, though, that as Christians we need to maintain a fundamental attitude to respect toward other religions like Islam.

Certainly, the only pure, clear Light is in Christ.

But we need to consider that Christ came into contact with people of other faiths in His time and even praised their piety over and above that of the Children of Israel.

He praised the faith of the pagan Roman officer. Through His parable of the Good Samaritan, Christ praised the actions of someone deemed a "heretic" by the Children of Israel.

We should not feel inhibited by those who do not (yet) share our faith.

We are called to let the light of our faith and works shine so that men may see them and glorify the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Alex

Dear Rob,

Thanks for clarifying the possible source of the discrepancies in Christ's name as employed by us and the Muslims. I never could understand how the name "Issa" just happened to settle there in the Quran. Now, as for "Yehia", well�...Speaking of which, say'yedna Abi Fanios used the name "Issa" in one of his poems. Those will be coming to you soon, BTW.

Of course, another thing that irks me is their affection towards Isma'eel and "say'yidatina Hajar". They can't seem to get it that we side with the Jews on this one. (Don't believe us? Come to a crowning) The pro-Is'haaq party. <Grin>
Sounds like something spawned from the chaotic chambers of the Knesset. By the way, have you ever tasted "miaah al zamzam" before? A most peculiar taste. For those not in the know, Muslims believe that as Hagar and Ismael were trekking the deserts, dying of thirst, God miraculously provided them with a spring from which to drink from. Zamzam water is unlike anything you've drunk before, I can gurantee.

[Muhammed was an intelligent, literate man in his days.]

He was most certainly literate. And he was a very shrewd merchant and trader who acquired knowledge from his travels. He wasn't a sage, as I said, but he was intelligent in more ways than one. A military brute, yes. But not a dumb one by any means.

[The man had such a fascination about books writen by Jews and Christians. He always referred to the Christians and Jews as the People of the Books (Ahl al-Kitab) and the Quran as the Mother Book (Um al-Katib).]

There is a very suspicious and unfounded rumor (a Saudi urban legend if you will) amongst some Arabs that a Christian icon of some kind rests within the Ka'aba. If true, then Muhammad must have had quite a fascination with us for anything to have been spared when he trashed the place and purged it of idols. Of course, I give no credibility to this interesting tidbit, as I've never been stealthy enough to sneak into Mecca, much less the Kaaba; however there was that one time when my father was traveling by car to another city and accidentally found himself within the boundaries of Mecca as a result of taking the wrong road. He came back home with his head intact fortunately and with an ashen white face from the shock. Good thing he eluded the authorities.

[This man also had a deep love for Arabic poetry and recitals.]

Indeed, who doesn't, or rather, who couldn't? Even our religious leaders seem to have tried to capture the eloquence of the Quran in their Arabic translations of the Bible. Was Muhammad a fan of Umru' al Kais, you think? We have enough examples of sublime Arabic poetry from "al asril Jahilee" to appeal to anyone from Muhammad's time.

[And of course, I am confident to say that he had a love for religious chanting especially when he listened to Christians and Jews chanting. I believe Muhammed's followers had much to do with the assembly of the various Surahs of the Quran. God knows if there were other Surahs and religious writings destroyed when the Caliph Othman standarized the Quran. There is a small history hidden in obscurity about the making and standarizing of the Quran.]

Unfortunately, any attempts at serious study of the origins of the Quran is met by opposition from the leaders of the Muslim communities.

[The Muslims are so confident that the Quran has been kept intact without alterations for 1400 years that there is no proof to discredit them because all the evidence was destroyed. Now it becomes my opinion.]

But imagine the uproar were some tome or fragment of a lost Surrah to be unearthed or discovered.

[One thing I do know from experience is that Islam is an outright lie. The work of the Devil. There must never be any compromise with it.]

This is even more imperative given that they claim Christ as their own. We're fighting on the same turf against them. As far as the Christian-Muslim dialogue in the Middle East is concerned, I am adamantly against it if it goes beyond the bounds of merely working out a way to improve our coexistance with one another. Theology should have no place in these discussions.

[Arab Muslims and Christians may share many virtues, morals, culture, language, history but the dialogue ends on the nature of Christ. Christ is our Lord and God. Christ is a mere prophet to Muslims despite the Quran's referal to Him as The Word of God and Spirit of God. They have no concept of the Holy Spirit and falsely label it as the Archangel Gabriel. This is no doubt a wicked, perverse religion that is out to destroy the Church and Her teachings in Christ.]

Which makes the blasphemous term "al-diyanaat al samawiya" (the Heavenly religions, indicating the monotheistic religions) even more repulsive. I have Christian brothers of mine back in the Middle East from "jam'iy'yat al shabeebeh" asking Father whether Muhammad was possibly a prophet. Lord help us! But when you hear the words "ikhwaan'nal Muslimeen" (our Muslim brothers) endlessly reiterated at sermons during Liturgy, what do you expect? Indifference will just take root. My brothers culturally as my countrymen with the same language and nationality and moral values, "ala 'eini wa rasee"; I accept that wholeheartedly, as I enjoy their company much more than I do the average American's. But in religion in whatever way, even monotheism, not on my life. I can only acknowledge that the simple belief in one God that a simple, pious, and humble Muslim possesses (and I have countless friends and know many elders, some of whom have shamed me with their simple piety and strong moral characters) has endeared them more to me because all that is missing is Christ. But as for the religion itself, I can never respect it when it denigrates my God directly, and when it has been the cause of the decimation of Eastern Christianity.

[May God's Kingdom come soon.]

Ameen.

Let me end this with an Armenian/Muslim joke I posted on a list before.

[Where I come from, jokes abound targeting two specific groups of
people: Armenians (jokes mainly serve as a parody for their Arabic
accents) and natives of Homos, a city in Syria (these guys are picked
on for their utter stupidity, but the truth be told, they actually
tend to be the smartest amongst the Syrians and the whole campaign
against them is a result of collective jealousy).

Here's a good Armenian joke. (Hagop's portrayal as a linguistically
challenged person is merely an attempt to parody his weak Arabic)

One day Hagop took it into his head to become a Muslim. Then one day
he decided to undertake the Hajj (pilgrimage) to Mecca. When he
arrived there, the Saudi custom officers proceeded to check his
bags. When the first suitcase was open, they uncovered a plethora of
canned goods, sardines, and so on.

"Ya Allah, what is this? Why have you all this stuff?"

"Hagop is hungry; Hagop don't want to walk in blazing heat to buy
food, so all food is here in suitcase."

The customs officer raises an eyebrow and moves on to the next
suitcase, which to his surprise is filled to the top with shorts,
shirts, and lots of clothes.

The officer wide-eyed exclaims, "What kind of crazy pilgrim are you?
Are you here to tour the place?"

"No, Hagop can't do too much work. Can't wash clothes. So Hagop
brings lots and lots of clothes."

Finally, the officer hesitantly opens up the third suitcase, to find
an unbelievable number of bottles of beer, wine, and all kinds of
spirits. With his nostrils flaring, he shouts out, "Wahiat Allah wa
Muhammad! you are a crazy rotten creature! For what devious purpose
have you brought all this forbidden alcohol to the holy city?! What
kind of a Hajj are you making?!

Hagop looks up innocently at the officer and gives a wide grin.
"Hagop is tired. When Hagop go to Haram Mosque, Hagop take good
drink. Instead of Hagop spinning around Kaaba, Kaaba spins around
Hagop."]

In IC XC
Samer

[This message has been edited by SamB (edited 06-19-2001).]

Dear Samer,

What a fascinating insight you provide on this issue!

My neighbour is Palestinian - Antiochian Orthodox.

He often has the 33 bead Muslim beads in his hands and hanging in his car.

Forgive my complete and total ignorance, but are the beads something that both Muslims and Arab Christians share?

Alex

Dear Alex,

Yes, as I pointed out in another thread not too long ago. You conveniently called them "worry beads". They relieve stress, and are more cultural than religious. When we dance the dabkeh, the beads are twirled above one's head. Even Greek Orthodox (Greek natives I mean), if I'm not mistaken, carried them around thanks to the influence of the Ottomans.

You will not however catch a young man with those beads. A middle aged man is more likely to have one of those in his inventory.

In IC XC
Samer

[This message has been edited by SamB (edited 06-19-2001).]

Dear Alex,
You are correct about maintaining a fundamental attitiude of respect towards others who are different in religious beliefs. I have many Muslim friends. My best friends are actually Muslims. Fortunately they are non-practicing Muslims. They will drink alcohol but will avoid eating pork like the plague. Generally speaking, Muslims are a stubborn people when it comes to hearing the Christian truth. They have been conditioned to reject Christian truths automatically. I always kid around with my Muslim friends and let them know that I hope to baptize them one day after they have seen the Light. I let them know that their prophet was a literate man and most of their teachings were derived from us with the exception of the denial of Christ as God. I believe if we continue to remain quiet in their midst they will continue believing their own lies about Christ. Unfortunately, evangelization is not allowed in the Middle East without Muslim retribution. Thank God that in the U.S. I can say and preach publicly that Christ is in our Midst! My family warns me to be cautious unless I want to become the next martyr.

Dear Samer,
I have tasted the water of Zam Zam. At first I was reluctant fearful that they may have put something in it to convert me(LOL). I forgot what it may have tasted like.
In regards to a Christian icon within the Kaaba it is true. The icon was of the Virgin Mary and the Christ Child. Muhammed and his followers decided to keep it as he demolished the idols. Unfortunately the Kaaba was destroyed in a fire and rebuilt. The Icon was destroyed forever as if it were a prediction of Christianity having failed there. I have studied this within Islamic history. Most Muslims and Christians are unaware of this lost history.
As for Umru al Kais, his eloquent Arabic poetry is unrivaled during the pre-Islamic times and is taught today in the schools of the Middle East. Muhammed was most likely a big fan of Umru al Kais. There was once controversy about one of the Surahs of the Quran belonging to Umru al Kais! I pray that one day parts or fragments of the Quran become unearthed in the sands of the deserts.

P.S. I heard your joke told to me in Arabic by my deceased father. He had me rolling on my back (LOL).

Indeed, one can purchase these 'worry beads' in Greek stores all over the country. I've seen them in stores in Boston, New York, Philly, Baltimore, Virginia, Chicago, Detroit, and even in Dallas and Houston.

I think they're mostly decorative, i.e., a type of costume jewelery. (And yes, they hang from some Greeks' automobile rear-view mirrors -- an impediment to safe driving. Hey, I'm in safety and health. What can I say.) Sorta-kinda like chewing gum, chewing/holding a cigar, or doing something else to keep the hands busy. No big deal.

However, I've also seen some musicians in Greek bands wearing the fez. THIS really makes me unhappy. Perhaps they're doing it to give that Near Eastern flavor; for me, it represents selling out to the Ottomans and by extension to a certain type of Islam.

Blessings!

[This message has been edited by Dr John (edited 06-19-2001).]