www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Catholicism & Islam: worshipping the same "God"?

Dr. John,

The "tarboosh" as we call it is no longer standard headware in our region, but it has permeated deeply into Mediterranean cultures. Consequently it's as difficult to completely get rid of them as it is to permanantly destroy the presence of shish kebabs, twirled mustaches (my mistake, those are thankfully gone), and rudimentary knowledge of the Turkish language coming from a lifelong career of backgammon (tawleh). Sheish beish, anyone? Oh yes, and let's not forget the witty stories of "juhah" which are not going anywhere for a long time to come.

As for the beads, they are more addictive than a combination of smoke, fine drink, and Internet. Watch yourself!

In IC XC
Samer

Dear Robert,

Coming home from my honeymoon in the Middle East, I saw a group of Arabic children playing.

Two of these were Christian children, and one had his Cross dangling outside his shirt.

His older brother saw this, and quietly motioned to him to put it back inside his shirt.

I will never forget that scene and it brought tears to my eyes.

I would like to help you baptize some of your Muslim friends, but I am afraid that, while we are in the water, you may want to dunk this Uniate a proper three times under water in the Orthodox way

Alex

Dear Alex,
Were you not baptized according to Orthodoxy? I do have a swimming pool (LOL). If you have any Muslim friends bring them with so I can dunk them all. Then we will have barbecued pork ribs and Heinken beers. This will be the party of the century. Boy, how I love those created in the image of our God.

<<I have read a number of statements recently from Catholic Bishops and both John Paul II himself talking about Catholics and Islam "believing in the same God". This somewhat alarms me. I number of my Orthodox friends have referred to this as a criticism of the Catholic Church.
What does the Catholic Church mean when they say that Islam and Catholicism believe in the "same God". There is something in the Cathechism about it meaning that we acknowledge the muslims as believing in the faith of Abraham. What does that mean? Ie what do they mean by the faith of Abraham? Are we simply saying that the muslims believe in part of the truth faith?>>

There's an article by Fr. Basile Sakkas that's reprinted in ORTHODOXY AND THE RELIGION OF THE FUTURE by Hieromonk Seraphim (Rose) of Platina dealing with this very issue.

He makes the very good, if strict, point that if Jews, Moslems, or anyone else has any knowledge of God the Father outside of Jesus Christ, who said, "No one comes to the Father but by Me," then the Lord was incarnated, suffered, died, and rose from the dead in vain.

Jews believe that God is absolutely one and that Jesus was the son of a prostitute and a Roman soldier. (This is according to the Talmud. I wish I could say it is a slander, but it's in the English edition of the Talmud published by Soncino press. To their credit, most Jews today repudiate this blasphemy.)

Moslems quote the Koran where it says, "Say not Three!" and believe that Jesus was simply a prophet of lesser stature than Muhammed.

Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God Incarnate, and that God revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Can all three be right?

+ Basil

Dear Robert,

Actually, the Ukrainian Orthodox used to practice baptism by pouring like their uniate brethren.

Ever since, though, I have been dunked under water several times by Orthodox and ultra-Byzantine Catholics.

I keep telling them not to repeat the process, that it is wrong. But they simply won't listen.

Again, please don't get the impression that I am collecting dunkings like I do icons and horologia.

I am already in enough trouble with Dr. John and NDHoosier!

Alex





[This message has been edited by Orthodox Catholic (edited 06-21-2001).]

Since, though, I have been dunked under water several times by Orthodox and ultra-Byzantine Catholics.

I keep telling them not to repeat the process, that it is wrong. But they simply won't listen.

That's because you keep getting out the water ALIVE, I think

They would PROBABLY stop if you promised not to do that anymore.

Greetings in the Name of Christ,
It is my belief that all outside of the Holy Christian Church are heretics, and that only those within the Church worship the One True Triune God.
We must be ever vigilant against realitivism, it creeps in under the name of ecuminism, let us remember that Only the New Testament Church, which began in 33 AD contains the full truth and none other.
The Jews from which our faith sprang rejected Jesus as the Christ and Islam rejects his divinity. Let us remember that the God Man, Jesus Christ, has told us that "no man comes to the Father except by Him" and this Truth is Only contained within the Church.
A most unworthy pilgrim
Ron

Sir:

We do not need any posts saying that the "New Testament Church" [something I have not heard of] was founded in 33 A.D. We do not need posts from fundamentalists such as yourself attempting to tell Catholics and Orthodox that they are not Christian.

Please enlighten me:

Who founded this Church?

I think that the best course when encountering judgemental posts is to just ignore them completely. And say a little prayer for the one who posted.

Blessings!

Christ is in our Midst

First I am not a fundamentalist. I am Catholic like yourself.
Second the Church began on Pentecost which was around 33 AD. Please read history.
As to being judgemental, I was raised Catholic and that all outside Her were outside the Church and therefore out of the Truth.
The Christian Church is New Testament. This I learned from Eastern Orthodox Christians.

I do not hold to the current thought that "all roads lead to God" it simply just is not true. If it were then why did the Father send Jesus to die on the cross? And why did Jesus Himself say "no man comes to the Father except by me?"

I'm sorry that you perceive me as judgemental, When I was away from the Church this is the same thing I said when someone tried to direct me back to it. Oh you're just judgemental. I would say that because I couldn't stand the idea they might be correct.
This is not a flame, I became interested in the Byzanine Church because I believed it contains the whole truth of the Church from it's inception. Unlike the Latin Rite, of which I have been for over 50 years, that has become more and more like the world.
I never said Catholics and Orthodox are not Christians, I said viewing Islam as just another way to God, or that it holds Truth is heresy.
Here, let me put it another way. While I was away from the Church and attending at a protestant church, I was choosing what I will or won't believe. That was heresy. Anyway, I'm sorry that you and probably others will have misunderstood what I said.
Please forgive,
Ron

Dear Ron,

I am sorry!

Jumping to conclusions is something that sometimes happens here.

I don't believe you said anything wrong.

You should see what they said about me because I like having a lot of icons

God bless you on your journey.

Alex

Thank you, I get a little overzealous at times myself.

an unworthy pilgrim,
Ron

<<It is my belief that all outside of the Holy Christian Church are heretics, and that only those within the Church worship the One True Triune God.>>

Heresy can exist ONLY within Christianity.

Jews, Moslems, Hindus, or adherents of any other religion are simply NOT heretics.

+ Basil

Basil,
I have a problem with your statement that heresy can exist ONLY within Christianity. True Christianity contains zero heresy. Any religious group of people have the choice to accept or to reject true and complete Christian truths despite their religious affiliations. Muslims or Jews or whatever are heretics. This is not meant to be derogotory. Everyone and anyone can accept Christ or deny Him. Hence the meaning of heresy. Islam inherently contains ancient Christian heresies: Docetism, Gnosticism and Nestorianism. If Jews, Muslims, Hindus, or adherents of any other religion are not simply heretics what do you call them? Orthodox Christians? Heterodox Christians? Heretical Christians? Relativistic Christians? Maybe Christians? Perhaps Christians but they don't-know-it-yet-Christians? Heresies exist outside the domain of true Christianity. What Church or church do you belong to?

Dear Ron,

I understand your feelings about, "Outside the Church there is no salvation." However, it is a bit more complicated than that. First of all, as you firmly realize, Christ is the only way to salvation- there is no other way. No one here denies that. However, it is not for us to decide to whom God ordains to apply that salvation to. It is possible for someone to be outside the physical structure of the Church and yet still be a part of her. We do, for example, believe in baptism of desire, which states that one who died never knowing of Christ but would have desired to know of Him or dies in pursuit of baptism can still potentially have salvation. The point is, it is quite legalistic to appoint ourselves as the ultimate judges of people's souls. Instead, we are called to live and proclaim God's message, hope for their souls, and let God do the rest.

Yours in Christ,
Matthew