www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology ???A Serious Question About Popular Piety

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Chapter Four Orther Liturgical Celebations (subheading) Popular piety #2688 I read the following and I don't understand it at all:

"Besides sacramental liturgy and sacramentals, catechesis must take into account the forms of piety and popular devotions among the faithful. The religious sense of the Christian people has always found expression in various forms of piety surrounding the Church's sacramental life, such as the veneration of relics, visits to sanctuaries, pilgrimages, processions, the stations of the cross, RELIGIOUS DANCES, the rosary, medals, etc."

What ta heck are "relgious dances"??? Why do they rank after the stations and before the rosary??? When I was in high school, I took dancing lessions for about 4 years, but I never recall any 'religious dances'...there was modern dance, ballet, etc., but no 'religious dance.' Anyone with a liturgical mind able to help me with this one???

Thank you in advance!

In His Holy Name,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory

Dear Father,

I think it's important to remember that the Catechism was written to try to be inclusive of the many cultures that make up the Church Catholic. This is one reason why there is mention of many aspects of Eastern Christian theology & praxis found within it pages.

That being said, I do beleive in some cultures - especially African and Asian ones - dance can take on a solemn and communal quality that we don't really experience in the West. For most in contemporary Western society, dancing is an art form (such as ballet) where the individual expresses himself/herself or a pleasurable pastime that is much connected to dating/mating.

Because of this background, so called "liturgical dance" usually does not work in Western societies. Whenever I have seen it done, it either comes across as silly and awkward [if done by the whole congregation] or as a performance piece [if done by trained dancers]. Either way it detracts from the spirit of the liturgy IMO (This of course is not to say that it cannot be effective in those cultures that have a tradition of sacred dance).

Now some liturgists broaden the notion of dance to include all body movement and gestures - hence the labeling of processions as a type of "dance". This really is confusing to me, and often produces unintended consequences. For example in our monastic refrectory, we have the practice of making a procession around the table right before our meal begins. One of our monks - trying to encourage a young man to think about joining our community - told him all about our "table dance" before dinner! :rolleyes:

Needless to say, the young man had quite a different idea about what THAT was all about!

PAX

Father bless!

Fr. Gregory, I think you may be reading too much into the list of examples of pious practices. If they were in order of importance by priority, I am convinced they would have said so, but they didn't.

As to religious dance, there are customs in some cultures that are observed outside the church proper, which are associated with Holy Week. For example, among the Yaqui Indians in Guadalupe, AZ. there are dances performed in a plaza near the church. Dancers wear animal headdresses, deerskin leggings, etc., and dance to primitive instruments. There are also roles for them in an outdoor Stations of the Cross, where the congregation processes throughout the town, kneeling in the street before various homes to pray each station. The dancers then jeer and mock them as the people did Christ in His walk to Golgotha. Preparation for their role in the procession includes prayer, self-denial, and fasting throughout Lent. Selection for the roles is regarded as a high honor, and they are anonymous, receiving no reward or recognition but that of God's Grace for helping their people to come closer to Christ.

Cultural influences have always played a role in the lives of the faithful, east and west, so religious dance is just another example for the list.

Abouna Gregory,

My experience of dance, like yours, is somewhat bound up with the era in which we grew up (I notice by your website that we're a mere 2 months apart in age, my birthday being in October, you youngster you !)

I'd agree with Benedictine that the reference is likely to inculturated traditions among some ethnic groups. I've never had the occasion to see so-called "liturgical dance" or "religious dance", but have seen heated discussions of it on some Latin forums. Nothing I've read suggests to me that it should be considered s valid liturgical ritual, other than in cultures where it is a natural expression of worshipful expression.

The sole instance in which I am confident such exists in the Eastern Churches is among the Knanaites of the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church sui iuris and the Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church of India.

Knanaya Catholics [indiacatholic.com]

(I don't believe that the traditions have been retained in the Knanaite communities within the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church sui iuris or its counterparts, the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church and the Autocephalous Malankara Orthodox Church, Catholicsate of the East, as in these three Churches the numbers of Knanaites were never sufficient to accord them the separate jurisdictional status that they have been granted within the Syro-Malabarese and Jacobite Churches.)

It strikes me as possible that there might also be such traditions among our brothers and sisters of the Ethiopian Catholic Church sui iuris and its sister Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, given that some of their customs and ritual trace themselves back to Judaic origin.

Many years,

Neil

Thanks everyone...OK, I guess I understand now...and within some Western cultures, I suppose this dance business is possible. David did dance before the Ark after all...so OK. I thank you for your time and being so kind as to respond to my question. I hadn't really thought about the 'cultural' angle.

In Him Who calls us,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory

As Jim told us, indigenous American cultures have sacred dances dedicated to Christian saints which are very beautiful, reverent and devote as their concept of dance is different than ours. In our culture it's a way to have fun and look cool. To them it's a sacred ritual.

The Spanish Missionaries in this continent always viewed these forms of dances as proccessions, as a way to teach people (since many dances represented historical facts: the creation, the passion, the life of a saint, etc) and encouraged them OUTSIDE the liturgical celebration. If I am not mistaken this is the correct application of the RC Cathechisms.

What some Mexican and American RC priests and bishops have done by mixing native dances with the liturgy, allowing profane music, etc. is an abuse and it seems Rome cannot control that anymore.

There have always been limits for inculturation, no one can deny that Orthodoxy in Gruzija is truly Georgian, that Russian liturgy is truly Slavonic and Russian... but it's still Byzantine!

You'll find out that in RC all around the world, liturgies differ too much from region to region, divide the communities and create a chaos. This is the case of liturgical dances performed inside churches. A truly native indigenous christian truly undersrtands the ritual he performs.. but a westernized person who is introduced to this will not understand for his western concept of what dancing is prevails in his mind. So dances of less reverent and purely amusement kind are introduced.

In Luxembourg there is a tradition of a stylised procession on St Willabrand's Day known as "St. Willabrand's Dance. When I was a boy in South Texas we used to have a procession into the church on Our Lady of Guadalupe that included Mexican native dancers in full regalia as well as dancers in folk costums.

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!

In many parts of the Balkans, Bulgaria, Serbia and Makedonia to be specific, many saints days involve processions and dancing.

Perhaps the most important is St.Lazarus. The Lazarkiye, the un-married girls of the village, wear special headresses and going from house to house in the village singing and dancing, telling of the coming of Spring and also of the coming of the Christ, on Flower Sunday, and of His passion and resurrection.

In these countries, daning and singing were traditionally forbidden during the Great Fast, so the coming of the Lazarkiye was richly celebrated!

In many parts of Croatia, the Ivancice or St.John's Maidens parade through the village singing, carrying swords and doing ritual dances on St. John the Baptist day. The swords remind everyone of the beheading of St.John.

Hope this helps....

mark

Dear Mark,

What you describe is not what I think the original poster was asking. There is nothing scandalous about dancing and processions in the streets on saints days.

There is scandal to the Western eye when dancing is involved in the Mass. I have heard many contemporary RC's scandalized by such innovation. The Pope clearly mandates that no dancing be involved in the Mass...after Mass in the church hall is completely another story, and is allowed.

In Christ,
Alice

I love Nikos Kazantzakis' descritpion of the anastenarides - the firewalkers - dancing among the embers with the icon of Sts Konstantinos and Eleni. The tradition of these dancing, fire-walking brotherhoods is alive and well in Northern Greece.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

My Friends,

Dancing is not allowed during the Sacred liturgy.

Every New Mexico Native American pueblo holds dances for its feast day-the holiday commemorating the Catholic saint who is its patron

I think this type of RELIGIOUS DANCES is what the CCC includes as popular piety.

Paul

Dear Father Mark,

Bless!

Thank you for that 'Greek' bit of trivia!

Always respectfully,
In Christ our Lord,
Alice

There is a liturgical dance in the Byzantine Liturgy. The �Dance of Isaiah� is celebrated during the Sacramental Mystery of Crowning when the bride and groom process (dance) around the Gospel Book. It symbolizes, of course, the lightness of a joyful dance that life can be if the couple keeps the Gospel as the central focus of their married life.

Dear Admin,

Don't let Rome find out about the bride and groom dancing during the liturgy!

Paul

Agreeing with all that is important in a legitimate cultural expression of faith, I still would like to point out the text of the catechism.

#2688 "The caetchesis of children, young people, and adults aims at teaching them to meditate on the Word of God in personal prayer, and internalizing it at all times in order to bear fruit in a new life. atechesis is also a time for the discernment and education of popular piety. fn. 46 The memorization of basic prayers offers an essential support to the life of prayer, but it is important to help learners savor their meaning."

46 Cf CT 54
Where did religious dances come from?
unless the Council of Trent spoke on religious dance.
Stephanos I