www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology ???A Serious Question About Popular Piety

Dear Stephanos I,

I'm sorry I don't understand the citations in your post.

Please explain.

Peace to you in Christ,

Paul

Dear Father, +EVLOGITE! Let me try to give you the EXACT location of the text. Chapter Four Other Liturgical Celebrations. Article 1 SACRAMENTALS. Popular Piety (third section under Sacramentals). # 1674 (2688). Page 466 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I was sincerely trying to find out what it meant Father, that's all. Please be assured that I had no ill will Father.

Kissing your holy right hand!

In Him Who calls us,
+Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!

I suspect that someone - perhaps the original author, or perhaps the translator - has missed the distinction (in English) between dancing and choreography. The Liturgy involves some complicated and beautiful choreography (notice, for instance, the incensation during the Cherubic Hymn at a Greek-style Hierarchal Divine Liturgy, to give only once example), but that choreography is neither erotic nor disedifying. Incognitus

Define dance?

When the priest or deacon in the Roman Church incences the altar, the ministers, and the people I see it as a movement of reverence. It is graceful and reverent but, I wouldn't call it a dance.

Ingcognitus,

Are we saying the same thing?

Paul

The best liturgical dances are the Divine Services of the Church. Even the simplest of services done properly, in accordance with tradition and with attention to detail can be more delicate than a ballet, more profound than any theatrical play, more colourful and striking than any ukrainian dance, more grande than any opera. The services of the church ARE dances.

In this place, (the House of God)�
things of earth and things of heaven,�
sing and dance together.
-Protodeacon David Kennedy

All you peoples, encircle Zion and dance merrily round about her, giving glory to
Him who is Risen from the dead.
-tone I Resurrectional stichiron.

I know that's probably not what the statement means by "liturgical dance", but as orthodox christians, that is how we should understand it.

Christ is Baptized!
In the Jordan!
S Praznikom,

Ilya

Holy Father Bless!

It is my understanding that the only churches allowed to have liturgical dance in the Church are the African-American Churches. It is part of their small 't' tradition. This is the clarification given by Bishop Foley here in Birmingham.

We were privledge to have a Catholic missionary that had been working in Africa visit our home before we moved from Steubenville, Oh to AL. Anyway, he brought with him a video of the Liturgical Dance that is done in that country. It was totally awesome. They acutally used plooms of ostrich feathers in the makeup of the clothes for the dance. But to see these people do a dance that was such a natural part of their life, so graceful and loving before God as tradition, it was truly beautiful.. The little that I have seen in this country when I have visited an African-American Roman parrish could never compare to what I saw with my eyes that was so elegant in the beauty of it's simplicity.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of Liturgical Dance. Except of course as Ilya described, I thought that was such a wonderful way of continuing "I knew not whether I was in heaven or on earth"
The best liturgical dances are the Divine Services of the Church. Even the simplest of services done properly, in accordance with tradition and with attention to detail can be more delicate than a ballet, more profound than any theatrical play, more colourful and striking than any ukrainian dance, more grande than any opera. The services of the church ARE dances.

Pani Rose

"The best liturgical dances are the Divine Services of the Church. Even the simplest of services done properly, in accordance with tradition and with attention to detail can be more delicate than a ballet."

I don't think this could be said about our Old Rite services!!! They're a rather muscular liturgical celebration of Christianity.

Delicate?

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Two examples come to mind that wouldn't be regarded as eastern liturgical dance per se, but are visually interesting in the way dance choreography is.

The three circumambulations at the tetrapod during Vespers is one.

Another involves a large worship space without pews, such as Nevsky Cathedral in Paris, which is a cruciform church. The congregation moves to the center of the arms and body of the Cross as a procession moves around their outer perimeter censing them. All are facing outward toward the procession, standing in the shape of the Cross. It is a powerful visual statement of the unity of Holy Church in Christ's Passion.

A good example of an "old rite" tradition that we still use in brampton is the coming together of both choirs in the center of the church to sing certain parts of the service. In greek- katebasia(i think that is the spelling), and in slavonic katavasia, meaning 'coming down' (from the two kliroi). Though history different parts of the services where this action was performed became known as katavasii. It is now best known as the last song at each ode of a canon. We do this at the Dogmatikon and at the Great Doxology at matins, as well as at the katavasii of matins.

Another ruberic that I would call 'delicate' is at the beginning of an all night vigil, when the youngest priest gives the dismissal at the 9th hour, as he finishes, the Royal Doors are opened very slowly (by two subdeacons) to reveal the main priest standing before the Holy Altar already incensing (very slowly). If timed properly this can be mindblowing.

Another simple but beautiful ruberic involving the doors comes at the priest's communion during the Divine Liturgy. At the conclusion of the prayer of the bowing of heads, during the singing of the 'long amen', the doors are closed slowly and the curtain is drawn slowly, while one of the servers comes from the sanctuary and places a tall-standing candle before the Royal Doors. This creates such a visual experience of mystery and wonder at what is taking place. Note: Even when a priest is given the award for serving the diving liturgy with the doors open, they are still to be closed for the communion of the clergy. Yes, serving with the Royal doors open IS an award that is given to high-ranking priests. The first Door Award is to serve with the doors open to the Cherubicon, the other is serving with them open to "Our Father".

Glory to God, who because of our sinful nature, has given us these visual gifts which help us to Glorify Him.

Ilya

Oh yes, I almost forgot, I am convinced that pews are evil. They cripple our services so they can't be served properly. They encourage sitting when the proper posture for church prayer is upright. Children are not free to roam around and discover God's house-instead they are confined to a virtual prison of wood. Veneration of icons(yes there should be many icons set forth for veneration) is impossible Entrances are something that happen only at the front of the church, katavasia are impossible. Funerals are awkward. Western practices such as kneeling on Sundays become standard, while orthodox traditions such as prostrations become too difficult and usually eliminated. I can't think of one good aspect of pews-NOT ONE. If we are to follow the guidelines put forth for us in Vat-II of returning to tradition, the first step should be the abolishment of pews.

So I put this offer here for all you parishes out there with pews. I am a cabinet-maker. If your parish decides to get rid of pews, I will come to your parish and make proper liturgical furniture for your temple. Analoi stands, iconostasis, Altar tables, benches for the perimiter of the temple, and icon cases and boards. You can sell the rest of the pews and with that money you can have icons painted for analoi stands.

It is a hard concept to grasp, but once you have a church without pews you will wonder how you ever managed having your church so cluttered up.

Yet another advantage of no pews is the church is ALWAYS FULL. Instead of seeing rows upon rows of empty pews, you are forced rather to see the people that ARE present instead of the people who are not. Singing is easier, and young people find it much more interesting.

The offer is out. You have no excuse. Pews are evil. They are heretical. They have NO PLACE IN EASTERN TEMPLES. If you respect your church and are concerned about the luturgical wellbeing of your parish, you will bring this up at your next parish meeting.

again,

Ilya

We sing the beautiful Irmos "Dance, O Isaiah," at weddings and ordinations in the Byzantine tradition. This is much more than just a nice little ditty inserted at this place in the service.

In Greece and some other places, the procession of the bride and groom around the Tetrapod is itself called the "Dance of Isaiah". This service, the procession around the font at Baptism, Great and Little Entrances, procession at Litya, Polyeleos/Velichannya, etc. - in these cases the liturgical "dance" certainly has a sense of propriety, appropriate liturgical rhythm, are beautiful and reverent.

When removed from this context as modern interpretational liturgical dance often is, it quickly devolves into a distraction at best.