www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Church Slavonic liturgies in the Ruthenian Metroplolia...

It seems to me that the descendents of Byzantine Christians coming from the Slavic lands (and those who join them) will repeat what happened in Slavic Europe in the generations after it was Christianized by SS Cyril & Methodius. The round domes of the Greek churches became taller to shed the snow (and therefore, distinctively Slavic). The liturgical language went from Greek to Church Slavonic. Here in North America one would expect the Slavic-style onion domes to either remain the same (as an identification of Byzantine Christianity) or to undergo modifications to harmonize the geographic / cultural aspects of North America. [A wooden church building just doesn�t cut it in the humid American southeast. Adapted Greek style architecture fits nicely into the American southwest.] Likewise, just as Church Slavonic replaced Greek among the Slavs of Europe, so, too, will English eventually replace Church Slavonic. It seems that bits and pieces of Church Slavonic will be retained (much like the local Roman Catholic parish sings parts of the Mass in Latin once a month (the Sanctus, etc.)). But the primary language will be English (and, in some places Spanish or maybe French).

I�m not leaving out other Byzantine Christians (Greek, Arabic, and etc.). The same thing will happen in those Churches.

Dear Administrator and Incognitus,

When you find a mainstream American who likes onions and garlic, please let us know immediately!

Perhaps something along the lines of the Golden Arches?

Alex

Alex,

Garlic and onions are staples in the mainstream American diet. The Mongolian Grill I had today at lunch was loaded with both!

Golden arches? Yuk! [Except, of course, the salads and the occasional Egg McMuffin.]

Admin

The avatar is the Church of the Archangel Michael
in Ung-Certez (where else?), Uzhorod District, Transcarpathia. It is from the a book (Churches of Transcarpathia, by Michael Sirochman, c. 2000)
My Dido's village church.

Ungcsertezs

[QUOTE] Administrator
"I�m not leaving out other Byzantine Christians (Greek, Arabic, and etc.). The same thing will happen in those Churches."

Judging by what I heard at St. Josaphat cathedral in Parma recently, I don't see the Ukrainians giving up Ukrainian liturgies any time soon...At least not in our lifetime.

I was attempting to paraphrase the thinking of some in the Ruthenian (Rusyn) Metropolia. It wasn't my own feelings, as I hoped would be made clearer in my follow up post.

My gripe is that the philosophy of some seems to be that ANY slavonic used in the celebration of the DL is a bad thing. Does it really hurt to learn a tiny, teeny, minute slice of another language? Hopsodi pomiluj! was that so hard? We (in Van Nuys) aren't allowed to do even that small a speck of slavonic in the DL!

The sincere efforts to return to our musical heritage are somewhat hampered by the awkward timing of a new translation coming into play simultaneously. My original post was that there some who want to throw out the baby, bathwater and basin! Nothing is left after that...

Steve

Totally cool Ung! Is it Orthodox or Greek Catholic?

I understand you Steve--thankfully we still take one piece in Slavonic on a Sunday. Wishing that it would be a litany once in a while though. ;-)

John

Steve,

It is sad what has happened to Slavonic in just the past twenty years. I'm 34 years old and I am probably the last of the Mohicans in terms of experiencing a complete Slavonic liturgy growing up. I learned my prayers in Slavonic and still say my prayers in Slavonic.

Probably the most ridiculous reason I heard against Slavonic was a priest in the eparchy (identity concealed to protect the guilty) that the young people in the church wanted English. I was only person without grey hair in place Sunday after Sunday. Talk about reaching for an excuse.

The bottom line is that, like it or not, the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church has undergone a complete purging of our Slavic heritage. Slavonic is grouped in this and the powers that be determined that it has to go. Also the whole 'modern' is good and 'old' is bad mentality also pushes Slavonic out the window. Old Church Slavonic is 'old' and thus has to go.

I'm not embarassed at how my ancestors prayed, too bad others are. Anyone who can think for themselves knows that if our ancestors that came to America had been told that not only could they not have married clergy but would have to worship in the vernacular, even more souls would have been converted to Orthodoxy.

Michael Cerularius

Orthodox (Moscow Patriarchate) as most Orthodox parishes in Transcarpathia are MP. While the priests like to think they are "Muscovites", the liturgy, prostopinije and faithful still retain a
Rusyn identity.

Ungcsertez

If a Parish wishes to sing a few Cheribum hymns, etc. in Slavonic, don't stop them. While becoming an English Liturgy there is not a reason why you shouldn't be able to belt out a mnohaya lita or petrijy pevi in Slavonic.
Much like singing the Pater Noster at a Latin Church or the Sanctus or Creed in Latin. Using a language everyone can understand is awesome. But for the fixed parts of response by the congregation I can't see why they can't be done in the historical langauges. We all know what they are in English, therefore, if you can sing them in Slavonic you'll know them in Slavonic.

Do I make sense. Ok, now if the congregation doesn't understand Slavonic there is no reason to be singing the tropar, etc in Slavonic. It changes daily. The readings as well are far better served in the language of the people.
But the immovable parts of the Liturgy where people have them memorized in English and Slavonic, why not sometimes sing those parts in Slavonic.

IIRC one of the three [ ] Sunday Liturgies at St. Josaphat is in English (09:30?). You will find a few other English services there. There is a little OCS used at the cathedral during Holy Week. Pokrova (on the Juian calendar, therefore attracting most of the newer immigrants) is exclusively Ukrainian. You'll find more English at St. Andrew (also in Parma, as is Pokrova) and Sts. Peter & Paul (Tremont - easier for you to reach, I would think).

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

Dear Etnick,

Actually, Kobzar is right - more and more of our parishes have English liturgies and there are those that are English only!

And in Brazil - Portuguese only!

And we still call ourselves "Ukrainian" without trying to "de-ethnicize" ourselves into "Byzantine Catholics" or something like that . . .

And the fact that the Administrator (and so many others) love garlic and onions, doesn't mean mainstream Americans want them as roofs for their churches!

Alex

In my Ruthenian Rite parish, we often do
some of the Saturday night Divine Liturgy
in Old Slavonic, but use only English in
the Sunday morning Divine Liturgy.

antonius

At SS. Cyril and Methodius Ukrainian Catholic Church in Olyphant PA, there are three "weekend" Liturgies - Saturday at 5:00pm; Sunday at 9:00am and 11:00am. The 9:00am Sunday Liturgy is sung totally in Old Slavonic and is broadcast on local radio.
You can't imagine the many people of varied ethnic heritage and religious convictions who write or phone the pastor to tell him that they tune into their radios to listen to that Divine Liturgy every Sunday and who express their deep gratitude for bringing such beauty into their lives.

http://members.tripod.com/stcyrils/home.html