www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Saint Mary or the Theotokos

You haven't offended me. I think Latin devotions are wonderful and I highly encourage them - for Latins.

I kinda like the Spanish/Latin "Santa Maria" best, but that's just me. Here in Pittsburgh (the home of the playoff-choke-artist Steelers) there are several churches that have the name Saint Mary, including the one that is a five minute walk from my downtown office.

I agree that 'Santa Maria' sounds like it is supposed to, (HOLY Maria/Mary) for some reason!

It feels right--even for someone who is not Italian or Spanish speaking! It feels warm and appropriate.

It sounds so much better than Saint Mary, which one might say is the limitation of English understanding and translations. For some reason, to me, Saint Mary sounds cold and Protestant.

Do the American Catholics still call her 'The Blessed Mother' or 'Our Blessed Lady'...that was VERY nice!

I just realized, thanks to Zenovia, that the affectionate 'Panayia' which Greeks call the Virgin Mary, means 'ALL holy one'.

Does anyone know what the Russians call her?

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Ghazar,

I am sorry if I have given offense to you (as I gathered from your addressing me by my full forum name ).

Certainly, the Rosary as we understand it would NOT have been used by the Eastern monks who would have simply prayed 150 Our Father's or Hail Mary's with prostrations as they do on Mt Athos.

I have no other information about the Armenian monastic tradition that would point to authentic Armenian Marian spirituality in this regard.

It could very well be that a Latin influence had something to do with even the spread of the Rosary in the Russian and Ukrainian churches - as I've read.

The way this could have happened is when groups of Eastern Catholics reunited with Orthodoxy, bringing with them a number of Latin devotions they picked up and these were later adopted by Orthodox Christians elsewhere, including Orthodox Saints - although St Seraphim of Sarov always insisted the 150 Hail Mary prayer rule was, at one time, practiced universally by all Christians through the revelations of the Mother of God to a monk of the Thebaid.

(I understand that Armenian monks do have prayer beads - what do they recite on them? There is a tree in the Holy Land that tradition says is one to which Christ was tied to when He was arrested - the Armenians make prayer beads from the nuts that this tree produces - do you have any information on this?)

I too am always trying to come to a better appreciation of the Kyivan Christian tradition and the devotion to the Mother of God is a great part of that.

And the recitation of the 150 Hail Mary's divided into decades is an established devotion among the East Slavic Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox being particularly attached to it (the 2003 "Encyclopedia of Orthodoxy" published in Moscow not only gives the outline of the practice, but also includes 15 mysteries for each decade etc.).

But even if it were not, I would like to think that if I (and I speak for myself only) came across a devotion from another Church or Christian tradition that was spiritually meaningful to me that I could adopt it as my own.

I've done this with the Armenian Office before Confession (which is the most beautiful preparation for Confession I've ever seen) and with the Agbeya of the Copts etc.

I think that Byzantine Christians especially tend to have this view of the religious world that involves well-defined lines of demarcation between what are "Latin" versus what are "Eastern" devotions.

And, over the years, I've come to appreciate that this perspective can be an illusory one at best.

I think you might be a bit too harsh in your view about those who prefer the Rosary over the Hours, however.

It is not that the Hours are not more important (as St Benedict said, "Let nothing be preferred to the Work of God.")

But it could be that the Rosary could be, for many people, better suited as a form of prayer and meditation.

The Rosary, in the Latin Church, can be used as an "Horologion replacement" just like the Jesus Prayer is in the Byzantine Church.

The Rosary, when properly done, is a beautiful meditation of what the Hours focus on as well. And the Hours could be difficult for many laity to learn and then to properly manage.

Even the great hermits of the desert used the Psalms alone as their office and would recite them daily from memory etc.

Ultimately, as Father Gregory has said here, "prayer is prayer is . . ."

If the Rosary is more meaningful to some, then better a prayer form that is so meaningful than one that is not - at least that's how I see it.

I would love to contribute to the "fear of death" perspective. Where do I do that?

Alex

Mary has many titles, as does her son, Jesus.
Her many titles resonate her glory.

I graduated from St. Mary's school. I think the Blessed Virgin Mary's many names is an indication of her children's love for her.

Paul

Dear Alice,

The Russians call her "Presvyata Bogaroditsa" or the "Most Holy God-Bearer."

I've also seen "the Most Pure Virgin Mary."

The name given to her in the Russian calendar for her feasts is, for example: "The Entrance into the Temple of our Most Holy Sovereign Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary" and always using that style.

Alex

Bill,

I've wondered something for a long time but thought it was just me, until an EC priest friend asked me about it recently, as it has also piqued his curiousity for many years. Your post reminded me that I told him I'd ask my Armenian friend, who's a fount of knowledge . Do you have any idea as to why the western-style mitres used by the Armenian Churches are so distinctively larger than those of the Latins?

Many years,

Neil

Dear Brother Alexander,

Allow me to clarify a few points:

First, you in no way offended me at all. But thanks for your concern.

you stated:
I think you might be a bit too harsh in your view about those who prefer the Rosary over the Hours, however. Ultimately, as Father Gregory has said here, "prayer is prayer is . . ." If the Rosary is more meaningful to some, then better a prayer form that is so meaningful than one that is not - at least that's how I see it.

clarification:
I think you missed my point in all of this. I was NOT writing about those who prefer the Rosary over the Hours. This is why there was no need to defend the Rosary or those who find it more meaningful. My point was about a pastor who specifically would instruct his faithful that the Hours should NEVER take the place of the Rosary in family prayer. Hence my comments about over-devotion, etc. I hope you can see the difference.

you asked:
I understand that Armenian monks do have prayer beads - what do they recite on them? There is a tree in the Holy Land that tradition says is one to which Christ was tied to when He was arrested - the Armenians make prayer beads from the nuts that this tree produces - do you have any information on this?

reply:
I'm not sure. The only beads I know of that are used by our people are "worry beads." I believe the Armenian Monks who are of the brotherhood of St. Hagop (Jacob or James) in Jerusalem actually make Rosaries for sale to the pilgrims in the Holy Land. I'll see if I can get more info for you on these.

you stated:
I too am always trying to come to a better appreciation of the Kyivan Christian tradition and the devotion to the Mother of God is a great part of that.

reply:
Absolutely, and I believe the traditional devotion of my own Church is just as deep and profound as is that of the Latins or the Eastern Romans.

you wrote:
But even if it were not [authentic Eastern Tradition], I would like to think that if I (and I speak for myself only) came across a devotion from another Church or Christian tradition that was spiritually meaningful to me that I could adopt it as my own. I've done this with the Armenian Office before Confession (which is the most beautiful preparation for Confession I've ever seen) and with the Agbeya of the Copts etc. I think that Byzantine Christians especially tend to have this view of the religious world that involves well-defined lines of demarcation between what are "Latin" versus what are "Eastern" devotions. And, over the years, I've come to appreciate that this perspective can be an illusory one at best.

reply:
You're openess is admirable, Alex. But just because someone else might not approach it that way, doesn't make them wrong nor spiritually impoverished. There is a place in this world and in authentic Christianity for those who stick to the unique spiritualality patrimony of their historic Church without integrating that of everyone else. I respect your fascination and openess to variety, although I might not share it. I also admire those who dig deep into my own Church's unique spirituality and then share those fruits with others. Being a purist is not necessarily wrong if it is not done with mean-spiritedness. I've benefitted greatly spiritually from those who have a profound knowledge of our Fathers, Saints, Liturgy and Iconography and have shared their findings with us.

you wrote:
I would love to contribute to the "fear of death" perspective. Where do I do that?

reply:
It is in this same forum in the Faith & Worship Category

Thanks for your continued dialogue,
Wm. Ghazar

To be honest, my brother, I have no idea. My suspicion is that the Latins too once had bigger mitres but with the recent bad economy, have downsized.

How's that for an encyclopedic knowledge. Btw, its easy to look smart when your the only one on the forum who comes from your background. Come to think of it, you might be the only Irish Melkite that I know.

There are many things in the Holy Land that were used when Christ was persecuted. In the Orthodox Patriarchate, (if one can get in), is the chair that Jesus sat in. I believe there were holes for his legs. I was so overwhelmed with all that I saw, that I actually forgot most of it.

I can't accept though, that the foot imprint on a stone in a Mosque, is not the step Jesus took when he rose to heaven. The Franciscans say it isn't, but I simply cannot accept that. It is so distinct.

Just to let you know that the tree that Jesus was tied to, probably does exist. Plato's olive tree did, until the pollution of 30 and 40 years ago in Athens; destroyed it. Of course Plato is not God. Jesus is, and all he touched must still be there.

As the Pope said when he visited, time in Jerusalem stands still. One can see the tomb of David, in the same place as the Upper Room...and that place itself, was built by the Crusaders. Thousands of years just seem as nothing.

So let us all pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

Zenovia

ROFL - either that or it was humility; nah, must have been the economy *



Many years,

Neil

*p.s., joke, my Latin brethren, joke

Dear Zenovia,

Thanks for sharing that interesting information!

I pray that I will visit the Holy Land one day...

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Ghazar,

Thank you!

If you ever come across further information in regard to those rosaries, and even where to purchase them, I will be in your debt.

You are more than correct in your perspective and I cannot agree more!

Did you know that there was an Armenian archbishop present at the inauguration of Ukraine's new President? I saw him on TV.

Cheers,

Alex

Dear Zenovia,

Yes, I was in Jerusalem some years ago and it was all so very spiritually uplifting!

I must say that the great moment for me was when we were at the Tomb of Christ.

There is what SEEMED to me to be a current of electricity or energy running through the Chapel and the Rock on which the Divine Body of Christ reposed.

It was one of the most moving spiritual moments of my life that I will not forget.

I walked the Way of the Cross with olive wood rosaries in hand, placing them here and there, and, of course, on the Tomb itself - these I later distributed to family and friends at home.

I still have a large olive wood rosary that I saved for my family.

Alex

Alex,

There's a mention of the olive seed rosaries on this page [armenian-patriarchate.org] . I don't recollect seeing info about purchasing these other than the inference that they are available at the convent. I do know that Tammy has researched the matter and she may know whether they are available on-line or through anyone else.

Many years,

Neil