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Originally posted by defreitas:
The Vatican has about a dozen Papal Tiaras; I don't think that any of them were made specifically by the Vatican.
The jewels that decorated it originally came from the Vatican and were reparations demanded from the Pope as part of the treaty of Tolentino.
The Tiaras are not the most valuable things in the world.
As far as I know, they are all made of silk, wire embroidery, cardboard, gilded silver (not even fine gold), with semi-precious stones.
Your assesment would be congruent with what I saw at one of the smaller vatican meseums. There is a smaller museum adjoining to St-Peter's Basilica (enter directly from basillica) which had a variety of papal tiaras on display. Based on their height, one would have to suspect that they are not made of metals and stones. The whole thing would probably just fall of the popes head if they were. Altough the tiaras were in glass show cases, there was little if any security in that smaller museum. I suspect if the 'rocks' were of such a quality that they made Elizabeth Taylor jealous, then there would have been Vatican security guards at each display booth. A priest walked by at one point and ask us if we had any questions. That was the only security I remember seeing.
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Dear Amado: My specific interest is: Whether the "coronation" of either Bl. Pope John XXIII or Pope Paul VI was part of the installation process signaling the commencement of his respective pontificate. The Crowning of the Pope was a part of the liturgical service for the investiture of a Pope. If such "coronation" was merely an "afterthought," which I personally think it was, then the "coronation" was not a "canonical" requirement as the practice ("tradition") ended with Pope Pius XII in 1939. Afterthought or not, it was always done, was considered an integral part of the service, and did not end with Pius XII in 1939 but continued to John XXIII and Paul VI. In the Roman Church, the "pallium" invested on the Pope is perceived differently from the "pallium" all Metropolitans are invested with before they can exercise their authority. The Pope as Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church has the entire world as his "diocese." If we are to believe what Rome tells us, then the Pope is not the same as an ordinary Metropolitan. In this regard, the "Fisherman's Ring" to me would signify the "universal" jurisdiction of the Pope more than the tiara or the pallium as the ring is the instrument with which he seals Church documents that lends "credence and authority" to his pronouncements as Supreme Pontiff. The Tiara does not signify the Pope's Universal Jurisdiction because it has not been used publicly in about 40 years. The Pallium only properly signifies his Jurisdiction as Metropolitan of the Province of Rome. The fisherman's ring does not signify the Pope's Universal Jurisdiction either, because the Pope does not seal anything with his ring anymore. When Pope Paul VI died, Cardinal Villot, went to the Pope's body to remove the "Fisherman's Ring". The ring was not on the Pope's hand. When a flustered and confused Villot angrily asked where it was, no one knew, The Pope had not worn it in years. They later found it in a drawer. defreitas
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There is a popular belief that the three crowns symbolize "the Church Militant on earth, the Church Suffering after death and before heaven, and the Church Triumphant in eternal reward." I understand that the triple papal crown represents his executive, legislative and legal powers as pope - similar to those of other monarchs, althought the Pope is certainly an absolute monarch and far from a constitutional, symbolic one. I think the triple crown on the papal tiara represents the Pope's "authority" as Supreme Pontiff: lawgiver, judge, and teacher.
In olden times, at the Pope's coronation, it was said to him: "Receive the Tiara adorned with three crowns, and know that thou art Father of Kings and Princes, Ruler of the World, and Vicar on Earth of Jesus Christ." Hmmm, I've read before and it has been my understanding that the triple crown represented the roles of the Holy Father as Bishop of Rome, Patriarch of the West, and Pope of the Universal Church. However, I am by no means an expert  God bless, Rony
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Originally posted by Amado Guerrero:
In the Roman Church, the "pallium" invested on the Pope is perceived differently from the "pallium" all Metropolitans are invested with before they can exercise their authority. The Pope as Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church has the entire world as his "diocese."
Originally posted by defreitas:
The Pallium only properly signifies his Jurisdiction as Metropolitan of the Province of Rome. Actually, . Worn by the pope, the pallium symbolizes the plenitudo pontificalis officii (i.e. the plenitude of pontifical office); worn by archbishops, it typifies their participation in the supreme pastoral power of the pope, who concedes it to them for their proper church provinces ...
...from the beginning, the pope alone had the absolute right of wearing the pallium. Its use by others was tolerated only in virtue of the permission of the pope.
There are many different opinions concerning the origin of the pallium. Some trace it to an investiture by Constantine the Great (or one of his successors); others consider it an imitation of the Hebrew ephod, the humeral garment of the high priest. Others again declare that its origin is traceable to a mantle of St. Peter, which was symbolical of his office as supreme pastor. A fourth hypothesis finds its origin in a liturgical mantle, which, they assert, was used by the early popes, and which in the course of time was folded in the shape of a band; a fifth says its origin dates from the custom of folding the ordinary mantle-pallium, an outer garment in use in imperial times; a sixth declares that it was introduced immediately as a papal liturgical garment, which, however, was not at first a narrow strip of cloth, but, as the name suggests, a broad, oblong, and folded cloth. Concerning these various hypotheses see Braun, "Die liturgische Gewandung im Occident und Orient," sect. iv, ch. iii, n. 8, where these hypotheses are exhaustively examined and appraised. To trace it to an investiture of the emperor, to the ephod of the Jewish high-priest, or to a fabled mantle of St. Peter, is entirely inadmissible. The correct view may well be that the pallium was introduced as a liturgical badge of the pope,
and it does not seem improbable that it was adopted in imitation of its counterpart, the pontifical omophorion, already in vogue in the Eastern Church. (emphasis mine) Catholic Encyclopedia 1917 ed - Pallium [ newadvent.org] Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Using the word "vogue", you have conjured an image of Orthodox and Catholic prelates strutting the catwalk in different liturgical dresses.....
Anton
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Originally posted by AntonI:
you have conjured an image of Orthodox and Catholic prelates strutting the catwalk in different liturgical dresses..... Anton, Now you've done it! :rolleyes: I can see what's coming ... we will now have the resident experts  in liturgical vestiture typing away here, offering us examples of color commentary on the various clerical personages as they traverse the runway  . Ah well, it will at least bring to an end the head to toe :p dissection of papal garb. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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As far as the Papal Tiara goes, Pope John Paul II has stated he has not suppressed its use and that a future pope could choose to be crowned with it. On the otherhand, I find it improbable that any pope in the near future would use it. I think they will follow the example of their predecessors and opt for investure with the pallium.
On a side note there are/were two other vestments restricted to the pope: the fanon (a second silk amice like vestment) and the subcingulum (a maniple like vestment worn from the cingulum (cincture). Anybody know if these are still in use by the Pope?
Fr. Deacon Lance
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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Dear Hritzko and Incognitus,
The whole argument about jewels in the tiara is one I grappled with when still taking left-leaning sociology courses that deprecated not only the tiara but all of Rome's wealth!
The "Shoes of the Fisherman" solution to world poverty is grossly oversimplified - even if the Catholic Church gave away all its wealth, this would not make a DENT in the world poverty level.
The jewels etc. belong to all Catholics as it is part of the rich heritage of the Catholic Church and Catholics.
Perhaps our Eastern Churches should start selling off gold chalices etc. too?
And what about all the money our Ukie people spend on church-building?
Should we be made to feel guilty about that since there are so many poor Ukrainians in Ukraine?
Alex
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I never said that I agreed with selling church patrimony. I get sick to my stomach everytime I see antique shops in Europe with our Ukainian icons for sale. To think that some communists stole them out of our churches and pocketed the money to buy summer 'dachas' (summer cottages) in Krym (Crimea) makes me very sad. Also, if the Pope wishes to return to wearing the tiaras, I'm not going to say it's bad idea. I think that the decision not to wear them is theirs (Latin rite Catholics) and for the moment, probably the right one.
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I reported historical facts, nothing more. I didn't express my opinion - which is that I rather regret the abolition of the Papal Coronation. Sic transit gloria mundi!
Incognitus
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Dear Revered Incognitus and Hritzko, It's O.K. guys! I think you are right on about Paul VI in this regard, but that the reason why the tiara was an issue was because of a new view of the Papacy seen in terms of a more pastoral ministry rather than an absolute authority figure. There's always a tension between the two but the Pope is definitely where the "buck stops" when it comes to laying down the law. The Administrator here fulfills a similar role . . . Alex
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Orthodox Catholic,
I LOVE YOU!!!! I have hanging on my ceiling a Vatican flag complete with the tiara. I have often felt a sudden sadness because it has fallen into disuse merle because I think IT IS REALLY COOL!
What is wrong with us latins? How come we are so quick to forsake our own traditions for either nothing or for other peoples? How come "renewal" recently has come in the form of "cutting down" on the liturgical, acetectual, and linguistic riches of the Church? Now, the council of Trent suggested the virtue of simplicity, in music and archetecture and the like. But simplicity is a relative term. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE WORSHIP OF JESUS CHRIST! Why ought we to abandon it in the name of simplicity? Why ought we to abandon beautiful practices in the name of ecumenical sensitivity? If the Holy Spirit causes certain people to voluntarily give up certain graces for the sake of bringing Christendom closert together, I say go for it! But the Church Universal oughtn't give up things as a body for that sake.
The tiara is a such a simple thing, and unimportant. It doesn't have too much significance, and it might not fit with modern sensibilities...but at the same time, who ever said that the Church was suppose to fit in? Actually, that was part of "Americanism" condemned as a heresy by Leo XIII in 1898. I'm not suggesting that the Catholic Church become again a cultural church like many of the Easter Churches are. I am suggesting that cultures and cultural riches are, however, glorious and add gratly to the beautiful diversity of the Catholic Church. Furthermore, beyond cultures, Vatican I defined the Church as the "perfect society", as such I think that it should have a few practices which run above secular society!
Read GK Chesterton. I believe firmly in the virtue of dancing in the street! When I think of my experience as an American Catholic I realize just how poor I am. I don't realize that I'm poor because there isn't enough that I could experience, but rather than I am poor because there is so much that I could experience which we have rejected.
This tendancy isn't so strong in other parts of the Catholic Church, but certainly in the American Roman Catholic Church this is incredibly prevenalant. Now, I (in all my research) have never once run across a liturgical case of kissing the popes feet, but I think that it is an awsome thing to do!
Idealy, I would want the pope and the faithful to be in struggle. The pope would struggle to maintain personal piety and ascetiscism, simplicty, humility, service, and the like. The people would fight to give the pope every single honor imaginable because of his exulted position. Because of his symbolism and Christ-given authority. I suppose, I ideally, the best Pope is an unwilling pope. This doesn't always work in practice (although most people don't want to be pope, so much that there is a traditional room of tears that the new pope goes to in order to cry before he is robbed) because the pope has to deal with politics (though I hate that) and with society both within the Church and outside her.
More respect for priests! I love my priest, I call him "Father", I embrace him! But I think there has to be an understanding of hiarchy, they we are below our priests, and despite our close connection with them, it is still a connection with requires our obedience.
I want the Latins to be proud Romans! If we are gonna steal the East, let us do it proudly, recognizing that this has always been the Roman tradition! If we are gonna incorporate local traditions into our religious celebrations, we should do this boldly, recognizing that so many of our beautiful traditions come from this! But latins ought not to forsake our own tradition. Why should we despise the pope? He is MY patriarch, MY papa, MINE! I'm proud of the Pope, I'm proud that there is a pope! To be quite honest, I wish to surround him (unwilling though he is) with as much pomp as I possibly can--recognizing all the while that he is but the vicar of Christ and only the Pontiff. But it fullfills some deep human need to be able to define yourself by a relationship. Who am I? I am the Son of the Father, the disciple of Jesus, the Child of Mary, the member of the Church, the subject of my Bishop, and the follower of the Pope! All of those are relationships, and it could be expanded. That is the way things should be! What are americans in relation to the government? We aren't in relation to the government, because the government is subject to us, not we to the government. If the people are to despise subjection and defining themselves by thier relationship to a governor, then all the more reason why the Church is necessary!
I am a Charismatic, a Roman Catholic, a lover of Latin, Greek, Theology, Philosophy, History, the Scriptures and the Church Fathers, and I am an American. Gosh Darnit, I'm gonna live like it!
There's my 1:00 in the morning rant. Night all!
"Although bishops have a common dignity, they are not all of the same rank. Even amoung the most blessed Apostles, though they were alike in honor, there was a certain distinction of power." -Pope Saint Leo the Great
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