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Hello, I am looking for answers. I am Roman Catholic. I am truly discouraged by the lay movements that entered my Church in the past few decades, particularly the Charismatic Movement. I watch good priests getting indoctrinated with un-Catholic teachings and one by one they all succumb to it through one group or another. I am looking for a way out; I am looking for more orthodoxy, without loosing the sacraments that I love so much. I follow the True Devotion to Mary, according to St Louis de Monfort and was wondering where I can turn without turning Protestant. Am I at a right place or have I just offended just about everybody here?

Welcome!

Please stay, read, ask questions, and learn...then you will be able to judge for yourself if you are in the right place! There are several "eastward-tilting Latins" on the forum, as well as converts to both Byzantine Catholicism and Orthodoxy, so many have been where you now are...just remember..feel free to ask questions.

Gaudior, in welcome

Dear Gaudior,

Thank you for the welcome. I will look around.
Who is the head, if not the Pope? Do you have lay initiated movements? Do you have the Charismatic Movement in the Byzantine Catholic Church? What is the language of your liturgy? Are there Byzantine Catholic Churches in Canada? In what way are you different from the Roman Catholic Church?

Dear True Devotion,

The Byzantine Catholic Churches are in communion with the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II. They are part of the same One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church as we are.

LatinTrad

Latin Trad has answered, re: head of the Byzantine Catholic Churches...As to the language, that varies. Many Churches DO have an English language Divine Liturgy, as well as a "native" language liturgy. The Divine Liturgy in the Byzantine Churches is most similar to that used by the Orthodox Churches...I shall be very brief, there, as there are whole threads on the subject elsewhere. And, yes, there are many Byzantine Catholic churches in Canada...but I shall let those from Canada answer more!

Again, welcome!

Gaudior, in summary form

TD, welcome.

You won't find a whole lot of posts here discussing various traditional Latin devotions and practices as this Forum is centered on Eastern Christian topics.

We have a very different liturgical and devotional tradition from the Latin Church. You mentioned devotion to Mary. We generally call her either Theotokos or the Mother of God.
For example, one of our "primary" devotion to the Mother of God is the Akathist, the first public office to the Theotokos in any Christian tradition written by St. Romanos about 500 years before the Rosary.

Not everyone posting on this forum is in communion with Rome, either. Many are Orthodox Christians who are not in communion with Rome.

"You won't find a whole lot of posts here discussing various traditional Latin devotions and practices as this Forum is centered on Eastern Christian topics.

We have a very different liturgical and devotional tradition from the Latin Church. You mentioned devotion to Mary."

Could I continue the True Devotion and would I have to give up the rosary if I started to attend a Byzantine Catholic parish? There is a Ukrainian Catholic Church where I live. Would they have the liturgy in English or Ukrainian? I am not Ukrainian. Would they welcome me? Am I correct assuming Byzantine Catholic parishes do not have charismatic prayer groups, so they would be free of Pentecostal influences?

True Devotion,

Welcome to the Byzantine Forum! I'm a Roman Catholic, like yourself, but am also highly critical of the feel-good self-centered mush that's taken over so many parts of the Roman Catholic Church.

As to latest questions:

1. Yes, you could still continue to practice True Devotion to Mary by way of St. Louis de Montfort if you began attending a Byzantine Catholic parish. You'd still be Catholic (even if you switched canonically* into an Eastern Catholic Church), so practice whatever kind of Catholic devotion to Our Most Holy Lady that you wish.

2. The Ukrainian Catholic parish near you may or may not have an English Divine Liturgy. Oftentimes, parishes with a large percentage of immigrants from the native country conduct the Liturgy in their native language. However, since this parish is in an English-speaking country (Canada), I'd be pretty surprised if the parish doesn't offer a Sunday Divine Liturgy in English.

What's the name of that parish? Perhaps some of our Canadian posters know something about it.

3. I suppose the members of the parish would welcome you, although apparently some very ethnic parishes are a little wary of outsiders. They may come of as stand-offish. Don't be afraid to attend Divine Liturgy there sometime!

4. I've never heard of an Eastern or Byzantine Catholic Church having anything to do with the Charismatic Movement. Then again, I'm not even Byzantine, so don't bank on that. Suffice it to say that if not every single one of them, the overwhelming majority of Eastern Catholic parishes have nothing to do with the Charismatic Movement - - - so much so that I, as a member of this wonderful Forum for over two years, have never heard of such a thing.

Perhaps you'd also like to consider attending the Traditional Latin ("Tridentine") Mass, if you're unsatisfied with some of the novelties in the Roman Catholic Church. If possible, only attend a Traditional Latin Mass whose celebrant is recognized by the Holy See.

Good luck on your search for orthodoxy...you're lookin in the right place!

Logos Teen

*switched canononically: The Catholic Church is made up of 22 separate Churches (one of which is the Roman Catholic Church) that are in communion with one another and in communion with the Pope. They're all equally "Catholic." If you, a Roman Catholic, wish to fully immerse yourself in the traditions of another of the 21 Catholic Churches, you must make what is called a "canonical transfer." Without it, you may only receive Communion and go to Confession (and perhaps also undergo Anointing of the Sick). With a canonical transfer, however, you can take part in all of the seven Sacraments (called "Mysteries" by Eastern Catholic). So, that's what I was getting at with the True Devotion to Mary idea; you could still practice the devotion even if you canonically transferred Churches. Hope this isn't too confusing.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello True Devotion!

Welcome to the Forum.

No one will ask you to give up any valid devotions.

I believe Dr. Alex Roman shares your interest in the True Devotion according to Saint Louis De Montfort. If he notices this thread he may have more to say on that.

Your private devotions are your own business. Many Eastern Catholics say the rosary and have other Western devotions, but as a rule we are restoring our formal cycle of Divine Praises, etc. So you probably will not find much in the way of formal groups following these types of devotion. Also, there are Eastern Catholics who are Secular Franciscans, Benedictine Oblates, etc. and many of our priests are bi-ritual (although that might not be the case in your area).

Some Eastern Catholics are as well informed about the Latin Rite church as they are of their own!

Interestingly, the Byzantine tradition could be called charismatic too, in it's own way , but not in the sense that you are probably thinking, it has no connection to the recent Pentecostal movement, and there will be no strange innovations.

I advise you to attend a Divine Liturgy just once, to see for yourself.

More than likely, the Divine Liturgy will be in Ukrainian in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. If you are in a populous area there may be more than one liturgy, in which case the second might be partly English.

Why don't you call the rectory and ask?

If the person that picks up answers the phone by saying something in Ukrainian like "Slava Isusu Christu" or something similar DON'T HANG UP!

Just say: "Glory to Jesus Christ! I was thinking of visiting your temple, may I ask a few questions?" and everything will be fine.

In Christ Always,
Michael, that sinner

By all means, visit a Byzantine Divine Liturgy. Check in your area and see how many Eastern Churches there are. We have that old-time religion - straight from St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople. Your knees won't shake, your head won't rock, your eyes won't roll back in their sockets, your hips won't sway, and you won't see flashes of light, have queasy tremblings in your stomach, or be visited by spirits or apparitions. We don't use snakes, either. No Pentecostalism, I promise. Just dignified, reverent and holy worship of the Divine Trinity. Come visit with us and see what we have to offer. If the Roman Rite tradition appeals to you, look for a Latin Traditional pre-Vatican II mass sanctioned by your local bishop, if he has given permission for it in your diocese.

Dear TD, no one will ask you to give up any personal devotion.

I just wanted to begin your education foray illustrating that we do have different devotional and liturgical traditions than the Latin Church. They can sometimes seem exotic to someone who has not had experience of our worship before. We have a very ancient and rich repository of services and offices.

Our services offer worship that involves the whole person, including the physical
senses, as we use incense frequently, our churches are filled with icons, etc.

Any Catholic can receive the Mysteries [Sacraments] in a Catholic church of another ritual tradition. Michael's suggestion about calling the rectory of the church you are thinking about visiting is a prudent one. The priest can give you a bit of background on his particular parish and the way they celebrate the services.

We don't really have anything akin to the charismatic movement. We call on the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, at every service, but you won't see any jumping around speaking in tongues sort of thing.

We will stand for the whole service sometimes and sing in a foreign language, however.

Dear True Devotion,

Welcome!

As Coalesco said, I share your devotion to the Most Holy Mother of God as inspired by Saint Louis de Montfort.

As you know, he was widely read in the Eastern Fathers and quoted them in his works.

I've also tried to bring some Eastern perspectives on this devotion on the "Share your Thoughts" section of this site:

www.montfortmissionaries.com [montfortmissionaries.com]

The Eastern Church invokes the Most Holy Virgin Mary many more times than the Western in its liturgical prayers, as Diak has affirmed.

In the rich devotional language of the Octoechos, which contains the long, liturgical propers of an eight-week cycle for the Divine Office or Horologion, you will find the most beautiful expressions of devotion to the Theotokos Mother of God, as well as in the liturgical canons and akathists.

The rosary or Rule of Prayer of the Mother of God is something that Eastern monastics in particular practice as a daily private form of prayer, and St Seraphim of Sarov, a Russian saint, practiced it daily and urged his spiritual children to recite it daily.

We do not recite it in Church, however, but we can recite it as a group elsewhere.

On the website above, I've given several examples of Eastern versions of the Rule of Prayer/Psalter of the Mother of God. There is also a Psalter of the Mother of God that resembles that of St Bonaventure but I've only found it online on the Serbian Orthodox site.

I've also written some akathists along Western devotional themes:

https://www.byzcath.org/~alex/

The true devotion is entirely in the spirit of Eastern Mariology and I think you'll find that the Mother of God is EVERYWHERE in the Eastern Church and is invoked constantly.

I would contact my local Ukrainian Catholic Church in BC, perhaps the Basilians who would be most open to services in English, and speak to them about your wish to begin attending the Divine Liturgy.

For everything else, I would ask questions here as there are excellent people on this forum who are both knowledgeable and eager to assist you.

And when no one knows the answer to something, there is always the Administrator!

I don't know of Ukrainian parishes who have the charismatic groups. I suppose it is possible and I"ve known individual EC's who have belonged, but I don't think it is something that is popular among EC's.

And why would it be? The devotion to the Holy Spirit is an integral part of Eastern spirituality.

We consider ourselves to be the original Church of the Pentecost!

Please feel free to privately e-mail me at any time.

Alex

Hi,

[QUOTE]
I am truly discouraged by the lay movements that entered my Church in the past few decades, particularly the Charismatic Movement.
[QUOTE]

I am sorry you've had a bad experience with the Charismatic Movement.

Although you might find much support for your positions in this forum, let me tell you that I myself am I charismatic, and I'd challenge anybody here to proove me anything else but an orthodox Catholic member of the Latin Church.

Yes, I know that not all my fellow charismatics share concern with keeping themselves orthodox, but just like individual cases of sexual abuse from priests do not make the priesthood a vocation to sexual abuse, the fact that there are some heterodox charismatics in the Catholic Church doesn't make the charismatic movement outside the boundaries of the Church.

The charismatic renewal is a Catholic movement in good standing with the hierarchy of the Church and the Pope himself has a charismatic as his household preacher (Fr. Rainiero Catalamessa)

If you simply do not like the charismatics, that's OK. Our Church is very diverse and will not force you the charismatic way on you. It is just a way, but not the only one.

Now, you have specific questions about Eastern Catholics, well, some of the answers you've received should already clarify some of your doubts.

Perhaps it would be good to clarify that each Sui Iuris Church has a canonical head, that is, a "first hierarch". In our Latin Church, this would be the Bishop of Rome, but that can be confusing because he is also the Supreme Pastor of all the Catholic Churches.

In the Eastern Churches, this position is occupied by another hierarch who can have a different title such as Patriarch, Major Archbishop or Metropolitan.

So when an Eastern Catholic talks about the head of his Particular Church, most probably, he is not talking about the Pope, but rather about this other hierarch who is in full communion with the Pope.

Finally, I need to say that I find Byzantine spirituality a fulfillment of the charismatic promise: A life based on an encounter with the Risen Lord Jesus, guided by the Holy Spirit in our way to the Father.

But then again, I also find that in my Sunday Mass at my Roman (well, bi-ritual Roman/Maronite) parish, so maybe that's just me and not that the Byzantines are deliberately charismatics.

Shalom,
Memo.

True Devotion,

Welcome to the forum. As others among my brothers and sisters have assured you already, you've offended no one here. I hope that we can answer some of your questions. We like to think that this is a place of both orthodoxy and Orthodoxy. Our membership is diverse, comprised primarily of Eastern and Oriental Christians, both Catholic and Orthodox; a number of Latin Catholics (some of whom practice their faith almost entirely in Eastern Catholic Churches - others of whom worship in their own Latin environment, but have an abiding interest in the East); and, a few Protestants (mainly, but not necessarily, from "High" Churches) interested in Eastern Christianity. There are both clergy and laity among us. Some of us came by our faith from the cradle, others converted into it, some have transferred from one to another Catholic or Orthodox Church, while still others have switched from a Catholic to an Orthodox Church or vice-versa.

Although the largest percentage of forum members is from the US, both Canada and Mexico are well-represented. You're probably our western-most Canadian member, but several other Canadians post regularly. We've got active members in a half-dozen European nations, Brazil, Australia, NZ, Egypt, Malaysia, and the Philippines.

Although there are some debates here (and occasionally an outright argument ), this isn't an apologetics forum. It's primarily a place where folks can meet to discuss Eastern Christianity, learn about it, educate others, understand differences in our theological points of view, and pray for the ultimate eventual unity of our Churches into a single communion. The principal rule is one of charity and respect for one another and one another's faith; we may not agree on everything, but we each respect the other's right to disagree. I feel confident that there is no forum online which offers an environment as caring and personal as this one. We are, in the end, friends to one another and our friendship doesn't depend as much on common religious history or belief as it does on appreciation of our shared religious heritages.

Holy Trinity is the Ukrainian Catholic parish in Kamloops. Some info about it, including a phone no. and an e-mail address for the pastor, is at their website:

Holy Trinity Ukrainian Catholic Church [vcn.bc.ca]

From the info provided there, the parish has only a single Divine Liturgy (= Mass) on Sundays, unlike many of the parishes in the Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy (= Diocese) of New Westminster which have 2 - 1 in English, 1 in Ukrainian. To me, that only one is listed, suggests that it is served (= celebrated) only in Ukrainian; however, check with the pastor, Father Mykhaylo Bohum, to verify if that is the case.

God grant you many years,

Neil

Dear Latin Trad,

Thank you for clarifying: Byzantine Catholic Churches are in full communion with the Holy Father.

Dear Diak,

I will research the eastern devotion to our Holy Mother, as Akathist, and as Theotokos in the tradition written by St. Romanos. It will be interesting, because I am her slave in the service of her Divine Son and our Master.

Yes, I did notice there is a wide range of spirituality and worship on this forum that is why I had to ask to get some of my questions clarified. Thank you for responding to my post.

Dear Teen of the Incarnate Logos,

Now I understand how non-Catholics feel when I try to explain my faith, they are probably as dumbfounded as I am with your screen name. What ever it could mean I ask? It must be something quite astute and wonderful�

I thank you for the long post and answering many of my questions. Yes the Tridentine Mass would be the perfect solution, but I have none in my area, except for the schismatic traditional sect, which offers the pre-Vatican II Mass, and their Sacraments are valid but still not licit. Since I follow the True Devotion, obedience to one�s superiors is paramount, so to join a schismatic parish would contradict everything I try to do with my life. Thank you for the explanations.

Dear Michael, that sinner,

I love your description of yourself: �most unworthy and unable�! I have not heard that before, but I instantly recognized you as a kindred spirit!

The �Glory to Jesus Christ� is the greeting I grew up with in Hungary, although I was member of the pre-Vatican II Latin Church, and not a member of the Greek Catholic Church, which was how Byzantine Catholics were called in Hungary in those days.
Thank you for the most informative and encouraging words, I will phone the rectory today and even if I will stay in my home parish, I now feel sufficiently encouraged to visit the Ukrainian Church on occasion, even if it is in a foreign language, because I do long for the reverence and the humility in the mass.

Dear byzanTN,

Good to know none of what you described will be awaiting me at a Byzantine Divine Liturgy!

Dear Alex, my brother slave of the best of all mothers!

Thank you for the links, I will definitely check them out, actually, I am truly looking forward to them!

Dear Memo,

I recognize the Church is charismatic. But the charismatic nature of the renewal is something entirely different: Different in its origin and practices. Also, I did not have a bad experience with the renewal; I belonged to it for over 15 years, so I know it inside and out. I have done a lot of research and I found all biblical teachings of the renewal are faulty and in opposition to what Holy Scriptures and Catholic Tradition teaches us. The people in the renewal are friendly and I never had personal conflict with them. But over the years I have come to recognize what a tremendous influence the renewal imposes on everyday liturgy, (never mind the charismatic masses), on the life of a parish, on its individual members, including the priest. I took my refuge in True Devotion. True Devotion brings the opposite fruits of the Charismatic Renewal, so much so, that one cannot practice both at the same time for very long. Please do not take this as an insult, and I am not writing from the perspective of spiritual superiority, just that the two are simply not compatible. But I do not think it would be prudent to take over this forum debating the renewal, that is not my intention and I understand the purpose of this forum is to explain and to nurture ancient eastern Catholic spirituality. Thank you for your response.

Dear Neil,

I have been looking but this is the best link yet, thank you! I drive by this Church nearly every day! I will definitely check it out. At yesterday�s mass, the first reading seemed to be all for me� and I have been thinking that the prophet Habakukk�s lamentation was at the time when the Old Testament Church was most corrupt and yet when our Holy Mother finally came, she went to the same temple and did not look elsewhere to worship. Hmmm. So I may have to remain where God planted me, for my sake or maybe for the sake of someone else, I do not know. I can make the Norvus Ordo mass reverent and if I am hankering after a reverent and humble liturgy, I can still go over to the neighboring Ukrainian Catholic Church (they are located on the same street) and partake in a Divine Liturgy in any language. I can do this now, thanks to all your responses and informing me about the Byzantine Catholic Church. So I am most grateful, and I will come around again and again to learn and quietly lurk on this forum, although I am sure, I cannot contribute much to anybody�s learning or holiness. God bless you all!

Susan