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Orthodox (UOC-MP) Metropolitan Discourages Veneration of Turin Shroud Copy
08.13.03 (RISU.org.ua) � Metropolitan Ilarion of eastern Ukrainian Donetsk and Mariupol (Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate [UOC-MP]) warned his faithful that he does not bless the veneration of the copy of the Shroud of Turin. Representatives of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC) brought the copy to Donetsk on 3 August 2003. This news was posted by InfoNews on 12 August 2003.

According to InfoNews, the metropolitan does not bless the veneration of the copy of the shroud because �Uniates brought it to Ukraine, with whom Orthodox Christians are forbidden to have communion, in Eucharist or in prayer.�

The Donetsk-Kharkiv exarchate of the UGCC proposed that Christians of other denominations be involved in veneration of the image. To date, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate has responded, and the UOC-MP has ignored the invitation.

Source: www.i-news.org [i-news.org]

Now I ask my fellow forum members:
Is this man worthy of being called a Metropolitan and a man of God? Is this what being a Christian is about? Is this what he and his church teach to the children of God? How can this be? Is there something wrong with me or what?
Lauro

Within Orthodoxy there is a wide divergence of opinion about Catholics. It is acceptable for Orthodox to believe that Byzantine / Greek Catholics (and all Catholics) are merely in schism. It is also acceptable for Orthodox to believe that we are heretics. If Metropolitan Ilarion (UOC-MP) believes that we are heretics then he could legitimately forbid the Orthodox under his jurisdiction from any interaction with other Christians that could be considered as prayer.

Is he less worthy as a Metropolitan or a man of God because of this? I don�t think so. I disagree with him, but Metropolitan Ilarion is acting with legitimate authority over his people.

Is this what being Christian is all about? For him, yes. It is his view that he is protecting Orthodoxy from corruption by prohibiting interaction with heretics.

Is this what he and his Church teach to the children of God? Maybe. Catholics would probably do the same if the Shroud were the property of the SSPX folks.

I assure you there is nothing wrong with you, Lauro.

Contrast the behavior of Metropolitan Ilarion with the KP. Patriarch Filaret of the KP marched side by side with Patriarch Lubomyr down the Kreschatyk in Kyiv with the image of the Shroud, and they had a joint Moleben together in St.
Volodymyr's Cathedral. The pictures are on the Patriarchal Sobor website.

The Shroud is a treasure of all Christianity and this is unfortunate.

It is all politics, that is all. That is the main reason of disunity and al of this BS (Byzantine Silliness/stupidity).

You do not hear any of the KP or UAOC Bishops telling the faithful not to go, do you?

Diak- What is the link for the Sobor?
-uc

Remarkable phenomenon. Sounds like some episcopal patient is in need of a double dose of Immodium-AD.

If the objection is that the object of potential veneration is really suspect, like the (supposed) Miraculous Icon of Our Lady of the New York Subway, then fine.

But if the objection is that the object of veneration is in the custody of "them", and therefore beyond the pale, then..... (How does one say 'nuts' in Ukrainian?)

Let us not forget that during the Soviet Hegemony and Slavery, many icons were displayed in so-called museums or 'museum-churches'. And the faithful came by as visitors and, when no-one was looking, made the sign of the Cross and venerated. And no one ecclesially-official made colonic-methane about the owners.

In this case, I think it opportune for the faithful to pray to the Lord that He open or permanently close the eyes of his episcopal servant.

Blessings!

Dear UC, the pictures are here:
http://www.kyivpatriarchalsobor.org/ukr/news/

"Moscow"? :rolleyes:

John
One of "them"

But this time it's just about the Turin Shroud, and there have been Latin clergy and laymen including prominent Catholic scientists who debate the authenticity of this shroud. The I agree with you though, Metropolitan's comments involving Catholics with this weren't right. It would have been more legitimate to expose the reasons why the authenticity of the shroud is not confirmed.

Thanks Diak. I don't know if I like the Sobor........

Let me say that I think that the patriarch of the UOC-KP is very very uncharitable and un-Christian like.

I really don't give a hoot to what they think about us, whether they think we're heretics or not. We may think that they are, but we certainly don't treat them like one or even anybody else.

I'm so sick and tired of Moscow and UOC-KP treating us like DIRT. The other Orthodox bodies don't treat us badly enough.

We can tell them to kiss our a**.

And as for the UGCC Patriarchal Sodor. Well...I have to say that I can live with the outside of the church....although it's uhhh unusually modern.

But the inside!!!!???? TOO MODERN! Folks, pass me this barf bag! My gosh! No disrespect intended here...but gee! I wonder if the Orthodox is laughing at us? I mean...it's not traditional style...especially in UKRAINE...and most especially in KYIV! I wondered who approved this design of the building? The committee? The priests? Or Husar?

But...I'll just close my eyes if I ever get there. Besides that...I guess the building or the design isn't important as the Divine Liturgy...and the hearts of people...and the heart of God. I mean...there was NO church buildings or designs in the earliest of the Church. So we can't be too shallow though, huh?

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Dear Administrator,
After reading your comments on this issue, I sat back and tried very hard to understand your position and your attempt to justify the metropolitan's acts, but I couldn't swallow it. Maybe if you put some sugar on your following comments.
Let's not forget that we are dealing with a person and a church, whose acts are just simply not justified and unacceptable and why not say "unbelievable". This church is honouring communists with certificates and medals while other churches are honouring the death of 7 million or more Ukrainians that perished in the "Famine" in 1933 under the same communist yoke.
This same church is also taking into consideration the cannonization of such figures as "Czar Ivan the Terrible" for example.
Seems like some the leaders of this church don't have hearts in their chests but stones and it also seems that they don't know their own history very well, either that or they seem to sit on their brains.
Lauro

Shane, I think you are talking about the UOC-MP, not the UOC-KP. The relations with the KP are good and continue to improve. Patriarch Filaret was invited by Patriarch Lubomyr to participate in the procession with the shroud and he not only accepted but asked all of his clergy to attend and freely offered his Sts. Volodymyr Cathedral for the joint Moleben.

Metropolitan Ilarion represents the UOC-MP (Moscow Patriarchate, Alexei II current Patriarch) and his comments are what started this thread. There is a double burr under their saddle with the UOC-MP i.e. the growth of the Ukrainian Catholic Church as well as the UOC-KP, both of which are now completely outside of the UOC-MP's control.

I would rather not even get started on the issue of the architecture of the Sobor...

Dear spdundas,
In reference to your comments:
This is the first time that I have read anything negative about patriarch Filaret. Please fill me in with the facts. From what I've read and known the KPs are in good relation with the UGCC and seems like it's getting better. Patriarch Filaret in one of his interviews with the Ukainian Catholic University located in Lviv said that he is not against the constuction of the UGCC Patriarchal Sobor in Kyiv and said that he is anxious to have Kyr Husar as a neighbor in Kyiv so that they could meet more often and discuss certain issues with more frequency.
In reference to the style and construction of the Patriarchal Sobor: It's not of my taste as well but then again not everybody likes pistachio ice-cream you know.
Lauro

Lauro,

Could you please post a source to where the MP is considering canonizing Ivan the Terrible? It is my understanding that it is a fringe movement that is putting him forward for canonization, and the Church is not responding positively.

anastasios

What's wrong with the architecture? It is not Kyivan Baroque so it is bad? The outside is a little boxy but the inside is great. I imagine that is what Hagia Sophia looked like inside before it was ruined. The floating dome technique, combined with the white marble, awesome. Just my two cents.

In Christ,
Subdeacon Lance