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Dear True Devotion,

Never worry about speaking because it is controversial...as long as all parties remain polite, the controversy is often good, as it provides information on both sides of an argument...

You may already have noticed a few "heated" threads, but the "miraculous" thing about the Byzantine Forum is that nearly everyone on it has a sincere respect for everyone else, and therefore, when they feel it necessary to disagree, do so vigorously, and yet with respect for their opponent.

Please, ask any question, and give your opinion on anything you like.

Gaudior, who believes in asking questions

That's exactly it. As I understand it, the
Eastern Liturgies say the same thing, whether
celebrated in English, or in for example,
Slavonic or Ukrainian.

However, when the Western Church went to English,
it wasn't just a translation of the existing Mass; rather, virtually every word of every prayer was changed, and most of what was distinctly Catholic doctrine was removed.
That is an important reason why the "Novus Ordo"
has lost the reverence and solemnity that the
Eastern Churches still preserve in their
Liturgies.

True Devotion, if you wish to discuss my reasons
for being an "eastern-tilting Latin", please
feel free to e-mail me privately, as much of
what I have to say concerns the Western Church
only, and does not belong on a Byzantine Forum.

antonius

[/qb][/QUOTE]Oh I fully agree with that. It would not be fair to anybody, including me. Thank you for pointing that out. In other words... if I changed rites, which I understand I would have to ask my Bishop's permission, it would be because I loved the Divine Liturgy and could not be for any other reason. [/QB][/QUOTE]

You don't just change rites, you change Churches. We are more than just a rite. We have totally different theology, spirituality, traditions and customs. It is a mixed bag, you have to be willing to accept everything. And you will need to learn to internalize these as well. And not everyone can do it. Like I said before, if you are coming to us to escape from something (the current Roman Missal, vernacular, lay movements, etc.) you are doing it for the wrong reasons and are better off staying where you are. Because you won't be happy with us. If you are going to change, it must be because you love us for what we are, not what we are not. Moe

Originally posted by moe:

You don't just change rites, you change Churches. We are more than just a rite. We have totally different theology, spirituality, traditions and customs. It is a mixed bag, you have to be willing to accept everything. And you will need to learn to internalize these as well. And not everyone can do it. Like I said before, if you are coming to us to escape from something (the current Roman Missal, vernacular, lay movements, etc.) you are doing it for the wrong reasons and are better off staying where you are. Because you won't be happy with us. If you are going to change, it must be because you love us for what we are, not what we are not. Dear Moe,

You are correct. What I found so far means I may not be free to begin attending a Byzantine Catholic Church with any regularity:

�You don't just change rites, you change Churches.

There are two main papal documents that are quoted relating to changing rites.

1. The encyclical Allattae Sunt of Pope Benedict XIV, dated July 26, 1755.

In this document, the Pope followed the precedent of Pope Nicholas V (1447-55), and condemned those who switched from one rite to another.

20. When Union was effected at the Council of Florence, some Latin Catholics living in Greece thought that it was lawful for them to go over to the Greek rite. They may have been attracted by the freedom retained by the Greeks for priests to keep wives after Ordination if they were married before being ordained. But Pope Nicholas V carefully applied a timely remedy to this abuse: "It has come to Our attention that many Catholics in districts with a Greek Catholic bishop are shamelessly going over to the Greek rites under pretext of the Union. We are greatly astonished, since We do not know what inspired them to leave the practice and rites in which they were born and reared for foreign rites. Even though the rites of the oriental church are praiseworthy, it is not permitted to confuse the rites of the churches. The holy council of Florence never allowed this" (constitution in Bullarii recenter Romae editi, vol. 3, part 3, p. 64).

Since the Latin rite is the rite of the holy Roman church and this church is mother and teacher of the other churches, the Latin rite should be preferred to all other rites. It follows that it is not lawful to transfer from the Latin to the Greek rite...

21. Transferrals in the opposite direction are not forbidden as strictly as the former. Still, a missionary who hopes for the return of a Greek or Oriental to the unity of the Catholic Church may not make him give up his own rite. This can cause great harm.

Melchite Catholics used to transfer willingly from the Greek to the Latin rite, but they have been forbidden to do so. Missionaries have been warned not to urge them to transfer. Permission to do so has been reserved to the private decision of the Apostolic See. This is clear from Our constitution Demandatam, 85, sect. 35 (Bullarium, vol. 1): "Moreover We expressly forbid henceforth all Melchite Catholics who observe the Greek rite to transfer to the Latin rite. We give strict orders to all missionaries not to encourage anyone rashly to transfer to the Latin from the Greek rite, nor even to allow them to do so if they want to without the permission of the Apostolic See, under the penalties which will be set out below and other penalties to be decided on by Us."

The same teaching is conveyed in the Decrees of Urban VIII in reference to the Greco-Ruthenian rite, issued at the Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith in his presence on February 7 and July 6, 1624. While it might seem fair to allow Italo-Greeks to transfer freely from the Greek to the Latin rite, since they live among us and are subject to a Latin bishop, it has nevertheless been laid down that the consent of the Apostolic See is necessary in the case of the transference of secular or regular clergy. If lay people want to transfer, the permission of their bishop is sufficient. He may give this permission with restraint to certain specified individuals, but never to a whole group. In the latter case the consent of the Apostolic See is required (see constitution Etsi Pastoralis 17, sect. 2, no. 14, Bullarium, vol. 1).

2. The encyclical Orientales Omnes Ecclesias of Pope Pius XII, dated December 23, 1945.

In this document the Pope mentions a letter written in 1608 by the Superior General of the Society of Jesus, which repeats the teaching of Pope Clement VIII (1592-1605).

30. Nonetheless, what the mind of the Apostolic See then already was is shown by the letter sent in 1608 by the general of the Society of Jesus to his subjects in Poland. He tells them that those who had never belonged to the Latin rite could not embrace it after the reconciliation, "because it was the precept of the Church, and was specially laid down in the documents of the union under Clement VIII that everyone should remain in the rite of his own Church."

So, several Popes have consistently forbidden Catholics to change from one rite to another. But does this mean that Catholics can never receive the sacraments of another valid Catholic rite?

Canon Law (of the Latin Church) allows Catholics to receive the sacraments of another rite

The answer to the question of whether Catholics of the Roman rite can receive the sacraments of another Catholic rite can be found in Canon Law, the Law of the Church. The most recent Code of Canon Law for the Latin (Roman) Church was promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1983.

The so-called "Old Code" of Canon Law for the Latin (Roman) Church had been promulgated by Pope Benedict XV in 1917. Catholics of other rites are subject to the most recent Code of Canon Law of their respective rites.

Let us now look at what the 1983 and 1917 Codes have to say about Catholics of the Roman rite receiving the sacraments of another Catholic rite.

a) Sacrament of Penance (Confession)

In the 1983 Code we read in Canon 991:

"All Christ's faithful are free to confess their sins to lawfully approved confessors of their own choice, even to one of another rite."

This Canon does not introduce new teaching, but virtually repeats the text of Canon 905 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law:

"All the faithful may, it they prefer, make their confession to a lawfully approved priest of any other Catholic rite."

b) Receiving Communion

In the 1983 Code we also read in Canon 923:

"Christ's faithful may participate in the eucharistic Sacrifice and receive holy communion in any catholic rite, without prejudice to the provisions of can. 844." (Canon 844 deals with cases where Catholics may receive the sacraments from and administer the sacraments to non-Catholics)

While the mixing of sacraments with non-Catholics as described in Canon 844 is definitely inspired by the false Ecumenism of Vatican II, Canon 923 of the 1983 Code otherwise repeats what was found in Canon 866 sec. 1 of the 1917 Code:

"All the faithful of any rite are given permission for devotion's sake to receive the Blessed Sacrament consecrated in any rite."

c) Receiving Sacraments and Switching Rites

In the 1983 Code, we read about the practice of receiving the sacraments of another rite in Canon 112 sec 2:

"The practice, however long standing, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of an autonomous ritual church, does not bring with it membership in that Church." (1983 Code)

The above Canon does not introduce new teaching, but virtually repeats the text of Canon 98 sec 5 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law:

"The practice, however long standing, of receiving Holy Communion in another rite, does not bring with it membership in that rite."

So we can see that in 1917, receiving communion in a Catholic rite other than your own, was recognized as a long standing practice in the Church, and WAS NOT CONDEMNED by Church Law. In 1983, this recognition was extended to receiving all the sacraments in another rite.

As we've already said, Pope Pius XII, prohibited Catholics from switching rites. That was in 1945. But he had to be aware of what was written in the Code of Canon Law, which had been around since 1917. So what's up?

Obviously there are two different things:

1. transferring to another rite, which is forbidden
2. receiving the sacraments of another rite, which is allowed

Note that according to Church Law of 1917 and 1983, receiving communion and the other sacraments of another rite (which is allowed) does not automatically mean that you are switching rites (which is condemned).

What does it mean to "change rites"?
Since changing rites is forbidden, we should ask what it means to "change rites".

It obviously doesn't mean receiving the sacraments of another rite.

What it does mean is that you can't just decide on your own that you're no longer bound by the rules of your rite, and that you can instead follow the rules of another rite. In other words, if you're a Roman rite Catholic, you can receive sacraments in the Byzantine rite, but you can't just decide on your own to become a "Byzantine."

The practical implications of this, if you're a Roman rite Catholic, are:

You must follow the rules of fasting and abstinence of the Roman rite, even if you attend the liturgy in a Byzantine church during Lent.

You must follow the rules of the Roman rite regarding marriage.

If you need a dispensation that a confessor cannot give, you have to get it from a Roman rite priest or bishop, not a priest or bishop of any other rite.

If you want to become a priest, you have to follow the rules of the Roman rite regarding celibacy.

You are bound by the Canon Law of the Roman rite, not of any other rite.

You are bound to observe the Holy Days of Obligation according to the Roman Calendar, even if on those days, you decide to attend the liturgy in the church of another rite.

Finally:

The rite you belong to is determined by your Baptism.

You can change rites only with the permission of Rome.

Of course it us understood that if you do get the permission of Rome to change rites, you would then be bound by the Canon Law, rules of fasting, marriage etc of the rite that you change to.

Catholics are not allowed to change rites.

edited for clarity from �Can a Catholic Switch to Another Rite?�

www.sspx-schism.com/ChangeRites.htm [sspx-schism.com]

Moe,

You're correct, our raison d'etre isn't to be a refuge for disaffected Latins, and I've advanced similar cautions before about the motivation behind requesting a change of canonical enrollment.

and,

but, that said, I think we're a bit at risk of scaring Susan off with admonitions that she not change Churches unless and until she's sure. It's pretty obvious that, at this point, she has only begun to explore Eastern spirituality and is far from the point of considering a change of canonical enrollment. So, for now, let's just encourage her in her exploration

Many years,

Neil

Susan,

The site from which you are quoting is an SSPX site and is a mixture of out-of-date information and information that is presented in a style that I can only describe as (? purposeful) obfuscation. I'm not even going to try and address the issues in piecemeal. Instead, I'm going to dig up and post excerpts from a few prior threads here and some that I did elsewhere that will explain the actual facts.

Many years,

Neil

Neil,

the site, sspx-schism.com, is not a SSPX site, but a site developed by 2 former SSPX seminarians and a former member of a SSPX chapel.

Deacon John,

You're right. I read too fast and didn't follow the link. However, the info that they have posted on this topic is still a mixture of out-of-date, ultra-trad interpretation, obfuscation, and clearly carries an agenda, witness the final line of the page:

they don't condemn this practice, how kind of them!

Many years,

Neil, returning to the task of dismantling this hodge-podge

Here are the pertinent canons from the CIC on the change in ecclesial membership, AKA, "change of rite."

Regarding the permission of the Apostolic See, the Secretariat of State issued a rescript of clarification on 26 September 1992. It is understood that the permission of the Holy See can be presumed in a change of rite between two consenting bishops.

As a practical matter, if you get the approval of a Byzantine bishop and the approval of your Latin Rite bishop, you can change rites. But you have to request it in writing. Several people in our area have done that.

Adding to my previous post, permission from the Apostolic See can be presumed in the case where the change of ecclesiastical membership is requested by a Latin member of the Church for membership in another Automous ritual Church, whose boundaries are overlapping with the Latin diocese and both bishops consent in writing to the change.

Well� just let me know when you dismantled the "hodge-podge". I saw who they were too, but honestly, there is not enough information readily available. By the way I do make the absolute best �pirohi�, (except I would have spelled it pyroghy), and I have been told my salmon culibriac (again, this may be the wrong spelling) is to die for. :p

Hi Zuzanna!

What do your HIMESTOJAS look like?



marko

Now my "h�mes toj�saim" is another story. They were never what you would call "h�mes".

True Devotion:

the papal documents cited as a prohibition of changing rites must be read in context of the times.

Latin Catholic men changed rites into order to marry and become priests "under the pretext of the Union." This we know from the document's citation of Pope Nicholas V. Looks like it was still a problem in the time of Pope Benedict XIV. So the prohibition was enacted for this reason. This is certainly not the case today. Eastern Catholic bishops would not accept a petition of a "change of rite" from a Latin Catholic male whose sole reason is to seek priestly ordination after marriage. Perhaps Rome acted this way in those former times because the Eastern bishops were not as discriminating as Rome would have preferred.

With respect to Pius XII's encyclical Orientales Omnes Ecclesias , he gives the historical background as to what lengths his predecessors have gone to ensure the preservation of the Ruthenian Church, even to the point of forbidding the change of rite of Ruthenian Catholics to the Latin Church. No doubt there were many Greek Catholics who had been enticed to embrace Roman Catholicism for less than true spiritual reasons. The Roman Pontiffs had to take action because the local Latin Ordinaries were not dealing with the abuse.

As a result the Latin Code (canon 112) and the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches (CCEO canon 32) provide for the consent of the Apostolic See to allow a change of rite. The CCEO further stipulates that no one can induce the faithful to transfer to another autonomous Church (canon 31). This is primarily in reference to the situation of the Latin Church luring Eastern Catholic faithful from their own Churches.

A change of rite is allowed, but the request must contain compelling spiritual reasons.

I hope this helps you.