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Friends-

Can anybody supply me with any statements by the Pope, Catechism or elswhere about a Catholic who becomes Orthodox? Is it seen as sin? Is it "OK?" I know that the official teaching of the Church is that the Orthodox are sister Churches with valid everything and only lacking union with Rome.

Information is appreciated

Columcille

Thanks, Columcille, for bringing this up. I would like to know the answer to this; specifically, is a Latin Catholic who becomes Orthodox *excommunicated* by the Latin Church? I wouldn't think so, but what's the answer?

Mor Ephrem,

Strictly speaking, because Catholicism and Orthodoxy are not in union, someone from one communion who joins the other DOES excommunicate him/herself from his/her original communion.

God grant this will not always be so.

Columcille, sorry, I dunno about quotes & the like. I'm sure someone does.

Best,

Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Dear Columcille & Mor Ephrem:

This might be of help:

[URL=http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/heresy_
schism_apostasy.htm [/URL]

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: Amado Guerrero ]

Canon Law makes it clear that it cannot be sanctioned.

Doxing is not some kind of double communion ala His Grace Zoghby's initiative. It is cutting communion from one body to forge communion with another. The act of severing the communion from the former ie. withdrawing from the authority of the Catholic Church makes one a schismatic according to the Code.....and I don't make the rules.

I personally feel more at home with the Orthodox and their mentality, their "ta'as'sub" (fanaticism) as some Melkites would say, but if I am to be honest with my faith, doxing is out of the question for me.

In IC XC
Samer

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: SamB ]

Here is the relevant article:

"Can 1437: One who refuses subjection to the supreme authority of the Church, or who subject to it refuses communion with the Christian faithful, though legitimately admonished does not obey, is to be punished as a schismatic with a major excommunication."

In IC XC
Samer

Colm --

Yes, one who does that (like me) is excommunicated -- actually, it is an act of self-excommunication. Obviously, the situation is different for born Orthodox or people who become Orthodox from other Christian confessions or from outside Christianity altogether -- these are not viewed as "excommunicated" by Rome, for they were never in Roman communion. Someone who leaves the Roman communion, however, unless there is a special dispensation (as is rumoured to have been the case with Fr. Lev Gillet, for example), basically excommunicate themselves from the Roman communion.

Brendan

I don't quite understand the question. If one is part of a communion and one leaves that communion, then one is formerly of that communion ("ex-" = formerly) + communion.

I would assume the Lev Gillet situation would less likely be described by the Catholic Church as a special dispensation (suggesting a primarily canonical action) but as a pastoral exception (suggesting a primarily pastoral and personal action).

K.

Dear Columcille,

Despite what Canon Law would say, this all depends on the person and his or her convictions about which Church is 100% true (even though the other is 95%, for example).

When Lev Gillet formally became Orthodox, and of this there can be no doubt, he wrote his mother to tell her, "I am not going to another Light, I am going to a clearer Light."

Also, there is a difference in Roman Canon Law between an RC who becomes Orthodox and an Eastern Catholic who "returns to his or her Mother Church."

I've attended lectures by Eastern Catholic theologians (e.g. Fr. Prof. P. Bilaniuk +memory eternal!) who reiterated this and said that Eastern Catholics can do this by way of "privilege" although I don't know what he and others meant by that.

It would seem, on the face of it, that Eastern Catholics are viewed by Rome like members of other Churches or Patriarchates who have been "poached" by Rome. They are Catholics, but they spiritually belong to the Churches their ancestors were "poached" from and continue to have some sort of tie to them.

Their return to their Mother Church is something that is therefore seen as entirely different than the "jump" so to speak of an RC to Orthodoxy.

Alex

>>>Their return to their Mother Church is something that is therefore seen as entirely different than the "jump" so to speak of an RC to Orthodoxy.<<<

Alex-

What about a Roman Catholic who becomes Eastern Catholic and then becomes Orthodox?

Columcille

Colm --

I think that is still like self-excommunicating yourself, because the Eastern Catholic community is not, in that scenario, your community of origin.

Brendan

Dear Columcille,

Don't listen to Brendan . I'm sure his Catholic friends and relatives he left behind in the Catholic Church like to needle him about being in "schism" etc.

And of course I would never do that . . . (Just love y'a, Brendan!)

Seriously though, the term "excommunication" can be used differently.

In Orthodoxy, it can be applied to those who are asked by their confessors not to approach Holy Communion for a period of time.

If you know someone who was a Latin Catholic and then became a Byzantine Catholic and now wants to become Orthodox (I haven't the faintest idea who that could be ), then the issue of "excommunication" is tied largely to the fact of the enduring separation of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

If that person, whoever he is, is CONVINCED that the Orthodox Church is THE CHURCH and that Rome is in error, then that person is ALREADY de facto Orthodox, even though he would have to be received into Orthodoxy.

For that person, Rome itself is excommunicated, cut off from the fullness of Apostolic and Orthodox faith and the Church.

Becoming Orthodox isn't like paying a visit to one's aunt whose cooking one likes with the permission of one's mother who never has time to put a proper meal together.

If that person is convinced of the truth of Orthodoxy, then it shouldn't matter to him if Rome considers him excommunicated from it or not.

It should matter if that person believes, with Orthodoxy, that Rome is in schism from the Church of the New Testament which Orthodoxy believes it is.

I would say that that person (a relative, perhaps? ) is now looking out toward Orthodoxy, but is still very much tied to his Catholic roots, whether Latin or Eastern.

In case of doubt, which I believe this person (a friend at work?) seems to have, he should seek out guidance and counselling.

I was once contemplating formally becoming Orthodox.

But I had doubts.

I consulted an Orthodox priest who told me that he didn't think I really wanted to become Orthodox "out of union with" Rome.

He told me to actually stay where I was and to serve God from where I was.

God bless you and your friend in your search.

Alex

Alex-

Actually, I was asking just to know what the spiritual circumstances of such a person would be. I aksed this same question of a traditional Latin priest once and he said that person would be a "schismatic." However, in light of how highly our Holy Father speaks of Orthodoxy, I was wondering if this particular priest was merely giving his opinion or speaking for the Church.

So no, Alex, I'm not becoming Orthodox....yet

Columcille

Dear Columcille,

And who suggested that you were even thinking about it?

We tend to think of the Latin Church as a great big monolith, with the Pope at its zenith and whenever he says anything, the rest of the Church walks lock-step in motion with him.

And I just don't see that. Some comments from Latin posters here make me wonder if they've ever read Vatican II or any of the current Pope's teachings.

That priest you mention should really get a post in the Vatican public relations department.

Given his obvious diplomatic skills, they could probably use him right now in the "Russian Outreach Project."

God bless,

Alex

A couple of points. First of all, since Orthodoxy is not in communion with the Catholic Church, BY DEFINITION, if you are in communion with Eastern Orthodoxy, you are (sadly) not in communion with the Catholic Church. If you were formally in communion with the Catholic Church, then you are an ex-communicate. Yes, the term does have a loaded conotation that might not be fair, but words do have meanings.

If someone has had the expirence of being received into the Orthodox Church from Catholicism while not breaking communion witht he catholic church (I assume with the knowledge and approval of the legitimate Orthodox authority, I would like more information).

Having said that, I think the Catholic Church's view touches on most of the desires posted here. Objectively and universally, the Catholic Church teaches that commmunion with the Universal Pastor is a thing a value. To reject that principle, STANDING BY ITSELF, is something that the Catholic Church cannot approve of.

Are their particular, pastoral circumstance where one is not simply in a situation of affirming or denying that principle but where one may, by personal circumstances, be forced to pick between this principle and another principle or moral good? I would think yes. But this then becomes a personal and pastoral question and depends on individual circumstnaces. Church authorities have even said one may join Protestantism in some circumstances.

K.