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Dear all,
In my scripture class on the wisdom literature of the OT, we are discussing the "Wisdom Woman" found in the book of Proverbs [see ch. 8 & 9]. Many women in the class were thrilled to find this in the Bible and assert - quite boldly, that this it a feminine version of the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity. One student even posited that "Holy Sophia" (her words)is an incarnation of the Christ. Well, some of us took an opposing view, stating that this "woman" was a literary device contrasting the wisdom woman with lady folly [mentioned also in Proverbs] as anthropmorphizations (is that a word??) of the 2 ways: God's way of wisdom versus the worldly way of folly.
Well anyway, the debate was spirited and the side that perceived divine qualities in the Wisdom Woman commented that "even the Orthodox recognize a feminine Christ in the naming of a church Hagia Sophia in Constantinople." Is this correct? I thought I would ask all you knowledgable folks on the forum if this students claim is valid. Also, I'm interested in what is the Eastern Catholic/Orthodox attitude on using alternative, feminie imagery for God - particularly in regards ALL the 3 Persons of the Trinity.
Thank You
PAX
Benedictine
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Here is a quote from the russian orthodox catechism "Father" as a Divine Name "Father' is the traditional, biblical name for God. His children are the people of Israel: "For Thou art our Father, though Abraham does not know us and Israel does not acknowledge us; Thou, O Lord art our Father, our Redeemer from of old is Thy name' (Is.63:16). The fatherhood of God is, of course, not a matter of maleness for there is no gender in the Divinity. It is important to remember, however, that the name "Father' was not simply applied by humans to the Divinity: it is the very name with which God opened Himself to the people of Israel. Male imagery was not therefore imposed on God, rather God Himself chose it in His revelation to humans (cf. 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chron.17:13; Jer.3:19; 31:9). The three Persons of the Holy Trinity bear the names Father, Son and Holy Spirit, where the name Son belongs to the eternal Logos of God, Who was incarnate and became man. In Semitic languages where the word for Spirit (Hebrew ruah, Syriac ruha’  is feminine, female imagery is applied to the Holy Spirit. Both the Hebrew and the Greek terms for the Wisdom of God (Hebrew hokh'ma, Greek sophia) are feminine: this opens the possibility of applying female imagery to the Son of God, Who is traditionally identified with the Wisdom. With this exception, for both Father and Son exclusively male imagery is used in the Eastern tradition. The Orthodox normally oppose modern attempts to change traditional biblical imagery by making God-language more "inclusive' and referring to God as "mother', and to His Son as "daughter', or using the generic terms "parent' and "child'. For the Orthodox, the full understanding of motherhood is embodied in the person of the Mother of God, whose veneration is not merely a custom or cultural phenomenon, but a church dogma and an essential part of spirituality. It is therefore not a matter of cultural difference between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics on the one hand, and the Protestants on the other, that the former venerate the Mother of God, while the latter pray to "God the Mother'. It is a serious dogmatic difference. Moreover, it is not simply stubborness on the part of the Orthodox when they reject changing biblical God-language, but rather a clear understanding of the fact that the entire spiritual, theological and mystical tradition of the Church undergoes irrecoverable alterations when the traditional set of the divine names and images is changed. Indeed, any name can be applied to the Divinity, while none can describe it. All names used for God in biblical and Orthodox traditions are aimed at grasping the mystery which is beyond names. Nevertheless, it is crucially important to remain with biblical God-language and not replace it with innovative forms. All names for God are anthropomorphic. Yet there is a difference between biblical anthropomorphism, which is based on the experience of the personal God in His revelation to humans, and the pseudo-anthropomorphism of modern theologians who, by introducing the notion of gender into the Divinity, speak of God as "He-She', or "Our Mother and Father'. hope this is will help. [ 02-02-2002: Message edited by: Broric ] [ 02-02-2002: Message edited by: Broric ]
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This controversy hit one of my religion classes when a guest lecturer started teaching that God was a woman and not a man and not a Father because of "Sophia our God". She pointed out the female words for wisdom in Greek and Hebrew, and all that. Of course, this was all to the delight of the radical feminists in the class and others.
My cousin and I, and a few others were the only "o" orthodox people in the room, and I was given the task of writing a response, which I did in a few pages, to all the stuff, heretical and otherwise, that she said.
I pointed out the stuff that all the posts in this thread have mentioned so far, and probably what any others here will mention better than I, so I'll steer away from that.
The only thing I'll say is that the Russian Orthodox catechism here is only half right: the term roo'ha is feminine, but it is not Syriac, but Assyrian (East Syriac). The Syriac (West Syriac) term is roo'ho, and to my knowledge it is masculine (until proven otherwise...I could be wrong).
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Benedictine,
I think confusion is sown becasue on one hand we have the personification of vitrues like Wisdom, Justice, Liberty, etc. and they are always represented as women. This is a literary device with its roots in Greco-Roman mythology that was borrowed first by the Greek-speaking Jews and later the Church. It is a valid device used to illustrate a certain idea. But never can it be suggested that because Scripture makes use of a literary device that somehow it is no longer a device but there is actually a such a person as Wisdom, Justice , or Liberty walking around here or in Heaven. This is just bad scholarship and worse theology and actually quite immature.
On the otherhand we have various tiles applied to the Divine Persons of the Trinity. Holy Wisdom, or Wisdom of God is one of these that have been traditionally applied to Christ. Yet never was it suggeted by the Fathers that the female Wisdom figure was the Holy Wisdom, the Second Person of the Trinity. However, it has become popular with the rise of feminism to use that title for God because of its feminine root in Greek. Usually though they I've seen them apply it to the Holy Spirit rather than to Christ, though I have seen this occur as well. In either case applying feminine gender to Christ or the Holy Spirit is wrong for obvious reasons. Christ was incarnated as man. The Holy Spirit as spirit is beyond gender as is the Father. Yet we speak of them in masculine because Christ spoke of them as Father and He. To change Christ's words to suit an agenda heresy in my opinion not mention ridiculous. Our Father/Mother or Our Parent figure or whatever else the feminist movement substitutes is nothing short of idiotic.
As far as Hagia Sophia, that Church was named in honor of Christ, the Holy Wisdom. However, in all the iconography uncovered Christ is shown as he always is in Byzantine Iconography, as a man. Icons of a female angel with the IC XC, as can be found on Robert Lentz' site were never found there. One was found on Athos, I believe, but the angel was neuter and contained within the concentric circles denoting the icon was a depiction of a spiritual idea or vison. Feminist arguements are based on fanatsy and historical revision.
In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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[Well anyway, the debate was spirited and the side that perceived divine qualities in the Wisdom Woman commented that "even the Orthodox recognize a feminine Christ in the naming of a church Hagia Sophia in Constantinople."]
Hagia (Holy) Sophia (Wisdom). Hagia Sophia is simply means 'Holy Wisdom'.
Bob
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Dear Benedictine,
An immensely fascinating subject, to be sure!
The East has a number of "Wisdom Icons" including the famous St. Sophia of Kyiv in the Cathedral.
It is on the iconostasis and depicts the Mother of God in the Orans position with Christ on a medallion on her chest.
She is surrounded by seven pillars with quotes such as you have raised including "Wisdom has built for herself a house."
The other famous icon is that of Novhorod with Christ enthroned as Holy Wisdom, flanked by our Lady and St John the Baptist. This icon is always above the Royal Doors as the Deisis. Slavs couldn't pronounce this so the called it "Deisus" or "Where Jesus is."
Other Wisdom Icons include Rubleev's Holy Trinity, the Dormition and others.
These venerate Divine Wisdom which is something we share with the Jewish tradition.
Feminine names do come into the picture, but apply only symbolically to God who is, as Lance said, above gender.
"Holy Trinity" in Slavonic is feminine "Svyata Troytsa."
The reformer, Jan Hus, was shocked to find out the number of Christians in Bohemia who thought that "Svyata Troytsa" was not the Holy Trinity, but a female saint!
We often refer to God in the Slavic languages as "Bozha" or the feminine for God.
Our Liturgy has a beautiful way of addressing God in a way that transcends gender and avoids the heavy "maleness" of the Father imagery.
We do not represent the Father as an elderly man in iconography. There is no icon for the Father in the East, except for the Old Testament Trinity.
Alex
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
We do not represent the Father as an elderly man in iconography. There is no icon for the Father in the East, except for the Old Testament Trinity.
Ah, but Alex, I have an icon in my computer of God the Father holding God the Son in His lap, with the Holy Spirit in one of those blue halo-like things, like a dove..."He" (I hesitate to say "They") is also flanked by a couple of pillar saints (one looks like Mar Shem'un Desthoonee, or Saint Simeon the Stylite, for the Syro-challenged ); it looks like a Russian icon. What is the average Syrian to make of this? 
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Dear Catholicos,
I don't know any "average Syrians, so I don't know . . ."
And we have an icon like that in our Church of St Nicholas.
I am told this isn't canonical, however . . .
And since we Ukie Catholics are already branded as "Latinized," all we can do is hang our heads and say, "You are right."
But we keep the icons . . .
Alex
[ 02-04-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
We often refer to God in the Slavic languages as "Bozha" or the feminine for God. Dear Alex, Could you please elaborate on this? I thought I was pretty savvy when it comes to our languages, but I don't think I'm familiar with this. My Slavic "God-speak" pretty much consists of: Boh = masculine noun, nominative case; Bozhe = vocative case of "Boh" (still masculine); Bozhichko = diminutive of "Boh" (still masculine); bozhkyj, bozhka, or bozhyj, bozha, or boskyj, boska, etc. = adjectival (singular, nominative case) form, e.g., Boska Maty, Bozha Maty = Mother of God; but other than the adjectival forms, there's no feminine gender to these words. Can you give an example of what were you referring to?
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Dear RichC, Yes, this is a popular way of referring to God as in "Bozha Dobra" or "God is good." When I was growing up in my hopelessly ethnic Ukrainian family , I was taught to hope in and pray to "Bozha." I have heard our priests speak thus in endearing tones to people in distress or in mourning at funerals. Alex
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