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Dear Readers,

As I am neither Russian nor Eastern Orthodox, I don't know too much about the differences between the pre-Nikonian Russian Rite and how it differs from Nikon's reforms.

Could someone englighten me as to the differences in liturgy, chant, iconography, and personal pious practices such as the Sign of the Cross (I know about the differences in that)?

Thanks!

Logos Teen

Sorry; obviously this should be in the Faith and Worship section, if someone could move it for me...

Logos Teen

Volumes could (and have) been written about particular differences. This is definitely a very short summary and is not by any means exhaustive, and is predicated on my own liturgical experiences with the Old Rite:

1. Liturgy - typically in pre-Nikonian Slavonic which has some differences from the Nikonian Church Slavonic ("viki vikom" instead of "viki vikov", for example). Uses the service books (obviously) from before the Nikonian reforms. There are some vernacular exceptions like the parish in Erie introducing more English but these are rare. Certain individual prayers are different such as a couple in the Divine Liturgy, the Zadostoinik at the Moleben, etc.

Motion is discouraged at certain prayers (Hexapsalm, beginning prayers, etc). to light candles or otherwise move about. Psalms 102 and 145 at the DL are sung by a single reader or Canonarch in their entirety rather than abbreviated antiphons sung by choirs. Bows and prostrations are prescribed for certain times in the services, and are not executed at will. Some minor differences in vestments, especially in the Bishop's vestments from the New Rite, no riassa with wide sleeves, etc.

2. Music - the older monophonic musical styles of Znamenny and Demestvenny chant are used rather than the later polyphonic "obikhod" and more elaborate choral setting chants;

3. Iconography - usually follows the more traditional older Russian style, like Novgorodian or St. Andrei Rublev's style;

4. Personal piety - Sign of the Cross with two fingers, Entrance and Departure bows before beginning prayer, when entering or leaving the home or church; using the podruchnik or embroidered cloth or pillow to rest the crossed hands upon when making a prostration; special embroidered shirts (rubashka) and belts (poyas) for church services; very conscious of observing the fasting times and feasts, as well as strict preparation for Communion; women always have their heads covered, wear modest dress and stand separately from the men; and many, many other particular traditions.

There are many other things that could be said in this regard. I assume you know there are priestly and non-priestly soglas groups of Old Ritualists.
DD

Spasi Khristos!

FDD

What is "soglas?"

"The terminology that is used for the divisions within the Old Believer denomination is somewhat vague. Generally, larger movement or group - especially in case of such major ones as popovtsy and bespopovtsy - is called soglasie or soglas (Eng. "agreement" or more generally, "confession"). Another term - tolk (Eng. "teaching") is usually applied to lesser divisions within the major "confessions". In particular it is used with respect to multiple sects that appeared within the bespopovtsy movement."

Here is a good run down of whats what among them.
http://www.search.com/reference/Old_Believers

Diak has been stydying the OBs for quiet a while so would be a good point of reference if anything needs clarification etc.

ICXC
NIKA

Ray, as Pavel well pointed out, a soglas is a particular group of Old Ritualists, sort of akin to an individual "jurisdiction" within Orthodoxy, such as the priestly Bila Krinitsia soglas, the priestless Pomortsy and Feodosevtsy, etc. They have various levels of organizations, some having sobors and other types of general conferences, some more insular and relying only on local village meetings of the elders for administration. The word itself comes from a root Slavonic word to have an agreement.

Each soglas has specific churches or Old Ritualist soglasnie they are in communion with, and a few priestly groups even have relations with a Russian Nikonian sister church.

The priestless are generally more "closed" in terms of who they will allow to pray with them as well as relations with other outside communities or soglasnie. Some like the Luzhkanie and Makivtsy have bascially no relations outside of their own small village communities.
DD

Dear Friends,

And the Old Ritualist Orthodox received THREE spoonfuls of Holy Communion when they approach the Chalice!

They also cross their arms over their chest when they pray in Church and also, when they approach Holy Communion, will form the fingers of BOTH hands in the two-fingered position.

When they pray their leather Lestovka, they will use the two fingers they cross themselves with to move the steps or babotchki.

Some even try to sleep with their right hand in the two-fingered position to be 'ever watchful' and ready to bless themselves during a night emergency.

They are also known to pray the 150 Hail Mary Rule of the Theotokos with the SAME ending as Ukrainian and Ruthenian Catholics - they cross themselves at each of the final words of the Hail Mary and have a special 150-step Lestovka called "of the Theotokos."

They will ALWAYS prostrate themselves to the ground at the end of the prayer, "It is truly meet", even on Sundays and Pascha.

What I find personally attractive about the Old Rite is their deep prayer life and long prayer rules where everything is spelled out to the last letter including the different ways one may pray "substitutions" for the Daily Office.

To date, I've found these substitutions:

1) Praying the Jesus Prayer (2 variations)

2) Praying the Kathismata of the Psalter (2 variations)

3) Praying Canons and Akathists

4) Praying the Psalter in the groups of 12 Psalms

5) Praying with prostrations (3 variations)

6) Praying 150 Our Father's and 150 Hail Mary's with prostrations

7) Praying the Reader Services

Their traditions also specify social courtesies which speak to a highly developed culture, for example, during the after-supper prayers, these are interrupted and everyone goes up to the person who prepared the dinner, single file, and thanks her or him with the three-fold kiss etc.

Alex

Dearest Alex,

You stated:

I really like this. An an oversized altar server, I always have my arms crossed in the altar area, even when sitting down for the homily, as do my peers. The majority of our parish cross their arms in honor of St. Andrew's cross to receive the most precious Body and Blood of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

My only concern is the two fingered position. Could you reiterate the meaning for me and where do the other fingers lay in relation to the palm? My peers and I use the three fingered position, and it is so meaningful, representing the Trinity and the two-fold nature of Christ.

Thank you so much for your wisdom.

In Christ,

Michael

L&F, you hold the thumb of the right hand down and touch it to the last two fingers; these represent the Holy Trinity. You hold the middle and index fingers out straight, just slightly bent, so that the index finger is then longer than the middle one; these fingers represent the divinity and the humanity of Christ.

Here is a bit of Old Rite instruction from St. Theodoret:

Spasi Khristos!
FDD

Dear Father Deacon Diak,

Thank you so much! I am going to start doing this to become comfortable with the position. It is similar to Christ's blessing, is it not? Except there, the priest touches the thumb to the ring finger?

In Christ,

Michael

The word "soglasie", when used with reference to Old-Ritualists, is usually translated as "concord". No particular reason that I know of, but it reduces the confusion a little.

The largest is the Russian Orthodox Old-Ritualist Church. There is one other community having priests, and deriving from the "Living Church" movement, of all things, but it is not even a tenth of the size of the Russian Orthodox Old-Ritualist Church.

It's harder to determine who is what among the Priestless: there are groups of "Pomortsy", groups of "Theodosians" and others.

Way out on the fringes are the Molokani, so called because they drink milk on fast days - this began, it seems, as a protest against fasting.

Incognitus

That is truly beautiful. I am always so thankful when someone cooks a meal for me. It is an act of love. We should always show gratitude.

In Christ,
Alice

Oversized altar server? You're not oversized. I mean compared to the rest of the congregation you are all kids!

I also tend to find it refreshing in some ways to see grown men serving at the altar with dignity, humility, reverence and respect. Something that unfortunately children do not always manage to convey. So you and your peers have my admiration, respect and just a tiny bit of envy at the active role you get to play in service to our priest and our Lord.

In Christ,

Carole

Thanks to everyone for the great answers...

Is anyone here in this group on the Old Rite
Forum?

I tried to join, but they seem very exclusive,
and would not accept my membership in the forum.