0 members (),
1,087
guests, and
72
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,506
Posts417,454
Members6,150
|
Most Online3,380 Dec 29th, 2019
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 260
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 260 |
JMJ Are Eastern Rite priests required to say the Divine Office everyday like Roman Rite priests are? I was under the impression that they were until a friend of mine from another group told me that they were not. I thought I would ask you guys directly so I could get it "Straight from the horse's mouth ![[Linked Image]](https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/smile.gif) ." If they are not required to say the Divine Office, are they required to say some other set of prayers? Joe
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
Dear Joe, My Byzantine Rite parish priest says there is not the same "binding under sin" obligation to say the Office in 24 hours as there is in the Roman Rite. However, we don't do anything that way anyhow. In the East, not only priests, but laity as well are invited to share in the daily Office of the Midnight Hour, Matins, the Hours, the Typika, Vespers and Compline. In addition, there is the Supplication or Moleben with Canons and Akathists which our devotion can lead us to say at any time as well. The expectation is that Priests, Bishops and Laity will say as much of the Divine Office as they can. I am as average a BC as they get and I get through Matins, Vespers and Compline as a rule every day, no problem. If someone is prevented from saying the Office or the Psalter, one may substitute the Hours with: Matins - 300 Jesus Prayers Hours - 50 Jesus Prayers each Typika - 80 Jesus Prayers Vespers - 200 Jesus Prayers Compline - 150 Jesus Prayers Midnight Office - 100 Jesus Prayers This is for those in the world, the Monastics say 3600 prayers for Matins, 1800 for Vespers and 300 for each of the other Hours. Another Rule for Priests is that they get through the Office even without the Canons and other readings. St Basil the Great never imposed a sin penalty on missing Mass. But he did impose excommunication on those who missed it three Sundays in a row. God bless, Alex Originally posted by Johanam: JMJ
Are Eastern Rite priests required to say the Divine Office everyday like Roman Rite priests are? I was under the impression that they were until a friend of mine from another group told me that they were not. I thought I would ask you guys directly so I could get it "Straight from the horse's mouth ." If they are not required to say the Divine Office, are they required to say some other set of prayers?
Joe
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 323
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 323 |
>>>I am as average a BC as they get <<< If thats the case, then the Byzantine Church is certainly in great shape ![[Linked Image]](https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/smile.gif) Columcille
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 158
Junior Member
|
Junior Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 158 |
Alex said: My Byzantine Rite parish priest says there is not the same "binding under sin" obligation to say the Office in 24 hours as there is in the Roman Rite. However, we don't do anything that way anyhow. >snip< St Basil the Great never imposed a sin penalty on missing Mass. But he did impose excommunication on those who missed it three Sundays in a row. To which I reply: Holy Cow! Excommunication for not having sinned!?! Now THAT is pastoral theology! ![[Linked Image]](https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/wink.gif)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
Dear Columcille, You are too kind. But I think the Daily Office should be like second nature, hopefully our better nature! Alex Originally posted by Columcille: >>>I am as average a BC as they get <<<
If thats the case, then the Byzantine Church is certainly in great shape ![[Linked Image]](https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/smile.gif)
Columcille
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
Dear Ignatius, No fair, St Basil isn't around to defend himself! ![[Linked Image]](https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/smile.gif) But again excommunication is different over there in the West where you are than over here in the East . . . St Basil assumes Christians won't be able to attend every single last Sunday Liturgy because of obligations etc. By separating Christians from Holy Communion (i.e. "excommunication") for missing the Liturgy three times in a row, he wanted to impress upon them the seriousness of our obligation to be near the Lord in the Liturgy and Communion. Our priests have the obligation, as do we all, to pray always. If we don't do that, we risk being "out of communion" with God and Christ now and forever. I prefer this approach rather than the "pain of sin" one since I got into the habit of preparing to confess a sin I was going to make in advance . . . My communion with God is vitally important and to harm it will mean a separation of terrible proportion. Alex Originally posted by Ignatius: Alex said: My Byzantine Rite parish priest says there is not the same "binding under sin" obligation to say the Office in 24 hours as there is in the Roman Rite.
However, we don't do anything that way anyhow.
>snip<
St Basil the Great never imposed a sin penalty on missing Mass. But he did impose excommunication on those who missed it three Sundays in a row.
To which I reply: Holy Cow! Excommunication for not having sinned!?! Now THAT is pastoral theology! ![[Linked Image]](https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/wink.gif)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712 Likes: 1 |
Thanks for the info on priests doing the Hours every day. The answer makes sense and is truly Eastern.
Reviving the use of the Hours among the laity is one of the noble goals of the pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic liturgical movement that has been spectacularly undersuccessful (while junk never intended by that movement has spread from diocese to diocese like cancer). It�s the second most important prayer in the Church and like No. 1, the Mass/Liturgy, it is the official prayer of the Church, the breath and life of the Church, yet many Catholics have never heard of it. (I know that some parish churches, to their credit, do it.)
Bishop Kallistos wrote that there wasn�t a split between liturgical and devotional prayer in our tradition like there was in the Counter-Reformation West (the medieval West had books of the Hours custom-written in Latin for the literate among the laity): all Orthodox prayer manuals are abridgements of the same prayers our monks and nuns pray every day, which is great!
So those among us in the Orthodox tradition who do have a daily prayer life usually are tied in directly to the tradition of the Hours. Glory to God.
Serge
<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
Dear Serge, Yes, that is the great "democratic" spiritual principle of Orthodoxy, that everyone has the same spiritual resources at their disposal by which to acquire the Holy Spirit. The public liturgical prayer of the Church forms our own prayer attitude by teaching us the doctrines of the Church, the nature and type of devotion we should practice and to whom and how much. Alex Originally posted by Rusnak: Thanks for the info on priests doing the Hours every day. The answer makes sense and is truly Eastern.
Reviving the use of the Hours among the laity is one of the noble goals of the pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic liturgical movement that has been spectacularly undersuccessful (while junk never intended by that movement has spread from diocese to diocese like cancer). It�s the second most important prayer in the Church and like No. 1, the Mass/Liturgy, it is the official prayer of the Church, the breath and life of the Church, yet many Catholics have never heard of it. (I know that some parish churches, to their credit, do it.)
Bishop Kallistos wrote that there wasn�t a split between liturgical and devotional prayer in our tradition like there was in the Counter-Reformation West (the medieval West had books of the Hours custom-written in Latin for the literate among the laity): all Orthodox prayer manuals are abridgements of the same prayers our monks and nuns pray every day, which is great!
So those among us in the Orthodox tradition who do have a daily prayer life usually are tied in directly to the tradition of the Hours. Glory to God.
Serge
[b]<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>[/B]
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 76
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 76 |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johanam: [B]JMJ
<<Are Eastern Rite priests required to say the Divine Office everyday like Roman Rite priests are? ....>>
I have seen and heard of various attempts to impose the "burden of the breviary" on Eastern clergy in union with Rome. Mostly, these are mentioned in books written by Latin Rite authors. Such books as the 1793 (and later editions) of the MOLITVOSLOV printed by the Pochaev Monastery, the IERESKIJ MOLITVOSLOV from Grottaferatta are obvoius attempts to come up with a Byzantine breviary, giving a workable minimum of common offices for every weekday and such. Most of the EC clergy I know have never heard of these volumes.
Nicholas Bulgaris in his Holy Catechism (a sort of syallabus for Orthodox candidates for orders written in the 17 century or so--i may be wrong about the date) hints that this obligation exists. He's the only Orthodox authority I've seen say so.
Considering that it takes a library of some 20 books for the full celebration of the Byzantine office, private daily recitation of the office is impractical. Not to worry! No more than 5 or 6 are used at any given service.
Various compendia exist, of course, in Slavonic, Russian, Romanian, and Arabic, published by Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics, and used by either indifferently. These go by such names as Sbornik (Collection), Anthologion (Anthology), Iera Synopsis (Sacred Summary), Megas kai Ieros Synekdimos (Big Fat Synekdimos). The closest English equivalent is the famous Nassar book, DIVINE PRAYERS AND SERVICES, better known as the Five-pounder.
All these books contain most of the feasts that would be observed in a parish church. They all contain a little bit of everything, but not really everything of anything.
The Byzantine Catholic Sisters of St. Basil the Great (OSBM) at Uniontown, PA have publised an excellent series of five books: Office of Vespers, Matins (which has the Little Hours as well)--these two books have what would be called the office of Ordinary Time in the Latin Church. The propers of Matins are somewhat abbreviated. Festal Menaion (corresponding to the Proper of the Saints, but only major saints and feasts of Our Lord and Our Lady). The Lenten Triodion (the only COMPLETE edition in English; even more so than the Orthodox edition published by Bp. Kallistos Ware and the late Mother Mary.) Finally Pentecostarion (Easter--Pascha--through First sunday afte Pentecost: All Saints.) These last two have the COMPLETE offices for every day in these seasons.
The entire set costs about $125--very reasonable, considering. Of course, it's possible to buy one volume at the time. A disadvantage is that they do NOT have Compline or Midnight.
I refer to them all the time. One advantage they have is that the texts are pointed for chanting to the Prostopinije (Carpathian) plain chant.
The "obligation" of the Divine Office rests upon the COMMUNITY--parish or monastic--rather than the indiviual. The community's obligation is to celebrate the Divine Office as fully and frequently as possible. The "obligation" of the individual is to attend as much as possible.
Something that many strict Latin rite faithful will find surprising, or even scandalous: There are abbreviations and adaptations everywhere, even in large monasteries. In private recition--which is considered praiseworthy among the Orthodox for clergy and laity, but not obligatory-- one is free to say as much or as little as deovtion and opportunity permit.
I heard of an old nun residing in the guesthouse of a men's community who was given a rule by her Eldress. She would rise at 2 or 3 am, open her Horologion (Book of Hours, giving the Ordinary of the Office and some other prayers), and start with the Midnight Office and read straight through through Ninth Hour. She wouldn't insert the propers, obviously. But she would read everything in there, including the Lenten and Festal variations regardless of the day, and occasionally the rubrics, with great devotion.
Would any deny that she was fulfilling her spiritual duties?
I guess I told you more than you wanted to know.
+Basil
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 76
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 76 |
<<St Basil assumes Christians won't be able to attend every single last Sunday Liturgy because of obligations etc.>>
In the intercessions in his Liturgy, there is commemoration of "those absent for reasons worthy of praise and a blessing."
Obviously the "three missed Sundays" rule applies to those deliberately avoiding the Liturgy for no good reason. It never applied to the sick, those providentially hindered, or even someone who woke up too late, but had every intention of going when he went to bed.
+ Basil
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 40
Junior Member
|
Junior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 40 |
Dear Basil,
A good friend of mine showed me the books from the Sisters of St Basil. I agree with you that this is a great set, and very useful for anyone who would like to pray the office.
Dear Johanam,
I know that in the Melkite Church, the Synod recommended that priests pray Orthros, Vespers, Compline and one of the little hours each day. As others (especially Alex and Basil) have so well put, this isn't really an obligation with penalties for failing to do so, but rather a general guideline for the clergy to follow.
In Christ, Mike (poor sinner)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
Bless, Reverend Father Basil!
Thank you for your informative posts on the Divine Office!
Your point is so very well taken and reflects Fr. Robert Taft's theme in his book on the Liturgy of the Hours: The office is a public prayer involving the community of faith.
Your reference to the nun who rose at night to pray reminds me of St Jonah of Odessa, the Orthodox priest who reposed in 1924.
He rose at night to say the Midnight Hour and then read Akathists until morning.
He prayed like this over the crib of a girl born blind for nine days straight and on the tenth day she regained her sight.
I am privileged to be working with a priest in Rumania on a life of this holy man in the Rumanian language.
Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,
Alex
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 76
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 76 |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johanam: [B]JMJ
Are Eastern Rite priests required to say the Divine Office everyday like Roman Rite priests are? >>
A couple of more points.
1. Fr. Abel Coutourier in his COURSE IN GREEK-MELKITE LITURGY, early 1900's (in French), said that according to various Melkite Synods and Patriarchal directives, in private recitation of the office obligatory on all major clergy, only the actual prayers contained in the Horologion and Psalter were of precept. Full celebration with propers was of obligation only for parishes and monasteries--and then only as was customary to the place.
2. Somewhere, in the syllabus for pastoral and moral theology used in the old days at Christ the Savior Seminary in Johnstown, Bp. Orestes Chornok instructed his clergy that the following was of obligation:
a. The Prayers on Rising and Prayers on Retiring as given in the Chasoslov daily. (These are given in most Orthodox prayerbooks, such as the popular Jordanville PB.)
b. If Liturgy is served on a weekday, in addition the Canon and Offices of Preparation and Thanksgiving for Communion.
c. On Sundays and Feasts, in addition to these, Midnight, Hours, and Compline (presumably on the evening before) were to be recited by the priest. Since, according to the Uzhorod SBORNIK so popular among the faithful from the Dioceses of Preshov and Mukachevo-Uzhorod, Vespers and Matins were publicly celebrated on Sundays and Great Feasts, that would take care of those offices.
As these directives were given when the Borba that brought such grief to the Pod-Carpathian Ordinariate of Bishop Basil Takach and the subsequent founding of the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese were living memories, these instructions apparently represented the normal precept of Office obligatory on Ruthenian clergy as late as early 20th Century. (How odd that phrase sounds!)
3. Somewhere in my reading, I picked up that Eastern Rite clergy who were members of Latin orders were obligated to either "whatever is customary" or else sixty minutes a day spent in reading the Office of their rite. It matters not if the entire day's cursus is completed.
4. According to EAST SYRIAN DAILY OFFICES, which gives the gist of the Office of the Nestorian and Chaldean Catholic Churches, Vespers and Matins (not their names for these offices, but I can't remember the traditional ones) were of precept for ALL the faithful, clergy, monastic, or lay. Presumably the lay people attended the celebration in their parish churches.
|
|
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Glory to Jesus Christ!
An excellent abbreviate Horologion for the Laity was written by Archmandrite Cherubim of Mount Athos and is available in English through a Convent of the OCA from New York---I have one at home and will look up the name and address of the Convent for you after work.
It is great for someone who works as it is abbreviated to take about the time of a good coffeebreak to say and lets you pray the hours through the day and night as you work. I found it to be very good for my teenagers, short enough to interest them but spiritual enough to wet their taste for more prayer---one of my sons is now a Reader in the church and a daughter regularly reads the Traditional Horologion prayers when she is not at work.
Your brother in Christ, Thomas
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
Bless, Reverend Father Basil!
St Josaphat himself also established the Rule for the Breviary for priests and laity that the "obligation" is fulfilled when reading that which is contained in the Horologion and Psalter sans the Canons etc.
Fr. Robert Taft, as you know, describes varying rules for the recitation of the Office in the East depending on the bishops etc.
It was St Paisius Velichkovsky, I believe, who got himself into some trouble on Mt. Athos over the Horologion.
It seems that the Greek Fathers there objected to his apparent attempts to emphasize the Jesus Prayer over the Office.
Paisius was horrified by this imputation and ordered that the entire Office was to be scrupulously observed by his monks daily.
This led to his monks spending 14 hours on average in prayer every day!
Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,
Alex
|
|
|
|
|