www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Altar Girls in the Ruthenian Byzantine Rite

I was surprised when I opened the Horizons News Paper recently and saw a picture of Bishop John at a Chruch celebrating their anniversary with a bunch of Altar girls vested up and even holding the communion cloth. I thought that this was against the "rubrix" of our rite. Are we taking a lesson from the Roman Rite in how to alianate young boys and throw out the traditions of our beloved Church? What kind of priest would put a fine and traditional Bishop as Bishop John in a position like that, especially in print that goes around the country? I guess I am spoiled in the PNW to have liturgies that are traditional and priests that don't cow-tauw to the feminist nuns and women who don't respect the teachings of the Church, Christ and would rather implode the church to get what they want.
If we continue doing things like altar girls, how will the orthodox ever take us sincere and not call us a "western" duplicate? They will have a point! I have been seriously considering changing my rite for years and this makes me worry. If Altar girls are being allowed in an Eparchy with Bishop John at the helm, what is the future of our beloved rite? When will the Bishops straighten these priests out and not be afraid of a couple of screaming libs?

in my OCA parish, girls hold the Communion cloth all the time and this is in the "conservative" Diocese of the West. No big shock to me

A sad thing in the Orthodox Church. You say they hold the cloth. Are they also vested up and serving behind the altar? Not just a "Lord, have Mercy", but a "Hospodi, pomiluj". Please Christ come within in us, melt within us, emmerse us with you, as a paint layer on the wall or paint on an icon.

Vestments for girls is not a tradition of orthodox christians as far as I know. Neither is altar girls. However, activities in the nave of the church don't necessarily have to be male only activities. It is possible to have women readers and, depending on your tradition, the priest can come out on the ambon to bless that reader, instead of a man or woman going into the sanctuary for a blessing. My own parish, unfortunately, does not have the blessing of the reader (who is always one of the cantors), but I hope we will restore this custom as well. (Ruthenians are well aware by now just how much traditions and customs can be obliterated.)

Children need to become involved in services in any way that is permissible. The more opportunities they have, the greater the chance of their increased spiritual awakening.

I would expect vestments for girls, however, not to be doable in most parishes, because the vestments are usually kept behind the iconstasis. That reminds me. I haven't noticed our servers carrying their folded vestments (cross side up) for a priestly blessing prior to vesting. Guess that's another missing custom waiting to be restored.

nwappleseed,

I was greatly offended by your first post and suggest that you get your story straight before making such harsh remarks. I am hurt and disturbed to see both my priest and my bishop accused of being passive to "feminist nuns and women who don't respect the teachings of the Church." If anything, the exact opposite is the case.

About ten years ago, my sister and her friend wanted to know why they couldn't be altar servers. After my priest explained why, they asked him if there were any other ways they could serve during the liturgy. Over the next few years, we developed Martha Mary servers (with the name to remind us of what true service means).

The Martha Mary servers never take the place of altar boys in our church. While they do hold the Gospel book or communion cloth, this is a job that had previously been left undone because we never have enough altar boys.
The girls sit with the people in the nave and help with odd jobs like holding baskets or other items for the priest. This is a great help to the priest on days when there are no boys to help him (which are very commmon).

The Martha Mary servers do not wear vestments, technically, but we did sew them gowns out of vestment material that are kept in a closet in the back of the church.

The girls feel that they're involved in the liturgy in a unique and important way. They understand that while they cannot serve on the altar, they still can have their own place in church. Through humble and joyful service, Martha Mary servers learn to treasure the Church's teachings on gender and modesty. This is far from our accused mission to "alianate young boys and throw out the traditions of our beloved Church."

May I mention in passing, that not only has Bishop John allowed the Martha Mary servers, but so has the current Metropolitan Basil when he was our local bishop. In fact, Martha Mary servers held the communion cloth last time he visited our church. I recommend that you reconsider before accusing him, also, of being passive to hidden feminist agendas.

It's important to note that the both bishops have allowed the Martha Mary servers in the case of our individual church. They have not officially spoken about continuing the practice on a larger scale. I do not want to claim that they approve of Martha Mary servers in every parish. If Bishop John wanted the practice to end, it would. My priest is faithful in his obedience to my bishop.

What's the big deal with female altar servers?! We had women deacons before!

Gee wiz, tradionally a "boy" would not be an altar server anyway because it was for adult men who were blessed by the bishop!

Please provide some evidence that altar girls inhibit boys from serving. At a local RC Church they have plenty of both every Sunday and it doesn't seem to bother them.

In Christ,

anastasios

In accordance with the council of Trullo, there should be no unordained or untonsured men in the altar apart from the sexton.

Spasi Khristos,
Mark, monk and sinner.

BRAVA ELIZABETH!!

I often attend your parish when I visit relatives in the Cleveland area.

I attended Divine Liturgy once when the Martha Mary servers were there and in fact THERE WERE NO ALTAR BOYS PRESENT!!

I also believe that at the Divine Liturgy, they also held the baskets for Mirovanje after Divine Liturgy!

Congrats on a job well done!!!

Keep up the good work!

mark

It is NOT a sad thing! As Anastasios has pointed out, the Orthodox Church did have Women Deacons in the past!

The women of my parish serve admirably in chanting the Epistle, leading the choir, leading religious education and outreach, and yes, holding the cloth for the Holy Gifts. These ministries are blessed by the Bishop. It is "God's work and marvelous in our eyes"

Just as I can show you many RC Churches that have no boys serving now that girls are doing it.

Heck in the RC diocese where I live they encourage famlies to serve together. Father, mother, son, and 2 daughters in the case of one group. While looking and feeling great in the pc world, I think something is lost.

As for you comment that we "had" deaconesses, I still wait undisputed proof that they had a liturgical role and were viewed the same as deacons.

David

The entire debate about deaconesses has become rather routine. The bottom line is that while they did have a different function from that of male deacons, which centered around the administration of the baptism of women, even with this historical fact, it is also true that they were admitted to the sanctuary and received communion at the altar, following liturgical protocol, after the presbyters and male deacons received. So, we should not be shocked or overly concerned should women be admitted to the altar today.

Many of our current controversies in this area originate from the iconoclastic period of church history, when there was a general preference for a return to Old Testament ideas and practices. While some of these reversions may have been desirable (such as the cube-shaped altar of sacrifice and the seven-branched candelabra, among other things), many of them have persisted until our own day, with preoccupations that deter us from focusing on the deeper meaning of the liturgy and its spirituality.

In the case of Roman Catholic parishes, it is certainly true that the role of serving at the altar should not be allowed to evolve into one that is viewed as a "girl only" role, just as it previously was a "boy only" function. I reserve any judgment as to the appropriateness of employing female servers in the Latin Church and agree that it is probably not an pastorally opportune time to introduce it in most of our Greek Catholic parishes. But, if we are discussing the issue of women servers in theory only, I see nothing in liturgical or theological reflection that would preclude them from doing so. I do see the greater inclusion of women in roles outside of the iconostasis, as has been attested to here in both Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic churches, as a means to more completely involve the worshipping community in the liturgy - which belongs to the whole People of God.

God bless you all,

Fr. Joe

Latin hat on here

If you can't gett boys to serve - what do you do ?

You do what we did at our Melkite Church, you get men.

hmmm - good idea - but we have 2 and can't get any more - they think it's for kids ! [ and 1 we have should not and the other is almost 90!]

Here's is a somewhat humorous link discussing the topic from a RC perspective:

http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=1&art_id=17412

PAX