www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Altar Girls in the Ruthenian Byzantine Rite

Thanks for the link for that - had seen it recently on another Site but the URL was not given.

I think that the situation in Angela's parish is a common one in Latin churches today. Some of the ramifications are also shared by our parishes. Although the concept is contrary to historical tradition, the role of serving has unfortunately become one that is often viewed as "for children only." Therefore, regardless of the correctness of having adults serve, many men are not willing to function in this capacity. It may actually be easier for us, in smaller parishes, to convince men to agree to serve, because of the greater ability of the pastor to approach individuals in smaller settings and explain the practice to them. Also, in some of our churches, the tradition of adult males serving has always been maintained.

I don't think we need to be concerned here at this Byzantine forum, with whether or not it is desirable to have women serve at the altar in RC parishes. It is an internal affair for the Latin Church and, regardless of "official approbation" or lack thereof, either on the diocesan or Vatican curial level, has become common place. I do not see it ceasing in most dioceses where it is practiced. I don't mean to say that we cannot discuss what occurs in Roman Catholic parishes, but only that we Greek Catholics should not be shocked as to what they do or do not practice.

With a decline in the number of "altar boys" it would seem that if girls were not allowed to assist at masses in RC parishes, many of their liturgies would be celebrated with a limited number of "assisting ministers" or none at all. In former times (the Tridentine mass), altar boys were the ones who responded to the priest's invocations, on behalf of the people, who mostly remained silent in the church nave. In this sense, the represented the collective body of worshippers, who are both men and women. Today, thankfully, this practice is not employed in the contemporary Roman liturgy and all make the responses together, as is done in our tradition. However, taking the former concept of altar boys playing the role of the congregation, it is not theoretically in conflict that men and boys as well as girls or women today represent the community, functioning in roles that are not presbyter-specific or sacramental, providing assistance during the mass.

The referred article reflects a phenomenon that, with or without female servers, needs to be dispersed, as I mentioned in the previous post. My own experience reflects much, that of the author of the article, during the days of my youth. It was indeed both a privilege and an honor for we boys to serve at the Divine Liturgy. There was too, some of the light-side of the job, in that we became quite comfortable in the sacristy and would sometimes joke or play around during the homily, something that I would not advise my servers to do today (although I know they often do). All this in a parish with an extremely strict pastor, who would constantly threaten to "fire" us if we were to move unnecessarily during the liturgy, not have perfectly shinned shoes or worse, show any sign of lightheatedness in the church.

I do have one observation about servers in general today, in that they sometimes come to church with less than dignified forms of dress, such as tennis shoes or jeans, something that again, would never have been allowed in my home parish, thirty years ago (or even today). This has crept in, I believe, from a more lax attitude on the part of both parents and clergy. The dignity of the liturgy should require one's "Sunday best" and not necessarily the same clothing we would wear at other times. I'm sure one of the contributing factors is a decline in the number of those willing to serve and as such, a hesitation on the part of the clergy and parents to place demands on children who do. Nevertheless, this is an area in which we could ensure that the liturgy is given its due respect.

In any case, serving at the altar should not be allowed to evolve into a "girls only" role or be seen as an effeminate aspiration. Where both sexes serve, it needs to be known that boys can and should be encouraged to help enhance the liturgy by their participation at the altar.

The post-concilliar Latin liturgy often requires much more preparation and many more ministers than the former mass, due to the existence of a great deal of variable parts and symbolic rituals which enhance the service. In many ways, although we do not mostly have this situation in Byzantine parishes, the Roman churches would probably not be able to celebrate the contemporary liturgy with as much grace and dignity without the participation of added servers, including the many females who volunteer their time and talents to beautify the services. Again, it is a phenomenon particular to the Roman Church more so than ours and we should not attempt to pass judgment on the suitability of their practices or make comparisons to our liturgy, which is a completely different environment. Angela's parish is not unique, I'm sure, among Latin communities.

Fr. Joe

Fr Joe,

I am in total agreement with you and we do seem to have some feelings about Servers that are common - dignity and decorum - oh yes .

Not just the training shoes - particularly the ones with flashing lights, but 'ordinary' clothes too do grate.

Mind one curious thing - the girls that we do have [ sorry about this ] do seem to have a better idea of how to behave on the altar - and remember ours are on 'display' all the time.

They regard it as an honour to be peermitted to serve.

Could this be a lack of discipline 'thing' with boys ?

Anhelyna

Just a quick observation.

From what I have seen in the Latin Church, the way the Mass is celebrated today, there isn't really much of a need of altar servers, just as the deacon seems to be an after thought, he just takes prayers and role that the priest does if he isn't there.

With out using incense, and no processions, except at the begining and the end, for those that stay to the end of the Mass. But then the person who does the readings, not calling them lectors as they are not truly lectors, are in the procession carrying the Gospel book usually.

From my experience, the servers just tend to stand there. With EEMs and others there really isn't much for them to do now a days.

It seems that with the changes made in the "spirit" of Vatican II and the "new" Mass, the emphasis is on the priest and his celebration of the Mass. Seem to focus more on him.

Now that I serve at the altar, I see how much more there is to do during the Divine Liturgy than there is during the Mass, which I did serve as a sacristan at a Roman parish. Also have noticed that the deacon has more to do in the east than the west.

Seems in the west he is nothing more than a junior priest.

Just a couple of observations.

David

It seems that with the changes made in the "spirit" of Vatican II and the "new" Mass, the emphasis is on the priest and his celebration of the Mass. Seem to focus more on him.

Dear David,

My Dad took me to Mass a few times when I was a small child. I think that sowed the seeds of my eventual conversion to Catholicism. The Latin Mass was awesome, to be sure, but I find that there is a much greater role for the laity today since the implementation of Vatican II. Unfortunately since Roman suburban parishes are so large the ignorance of those who slip out of Mass after Holy Communion is multiplied. There's some much needed catechesis required here.

True, Roman parishes don't generally have incense, etc. at the normal Sunday liturgy, but the Easter Vigil, when well celebrated, is a glorious thing to behold -- then all the stops are pulled out and the incense, the music, the Litany of the Saints which I love so much, all come together.

The Latin Rite has always been more austere than the Eastern, some of this due to cultural influences. I am puzzled by your observance that altar servers at Roman parishes don't have much to do. And the role of the deacon in the Roman rite is somewhat different than in the Eastern. I have heard some wonderful homilies from deacons and they render a very valued service both within and outside of the liturgy in today's expanding Roman parishes.

Anhelyna,

My parish is served by both male and female altar servers and I have to give the girls credit for their reverent behavior. Some parishes in our area, however, do not permit altar girls. I also have to give high praise to the parishioners of St. Michael's Russian Orthodox Church in my area. Unlike the folks at both the Roman Catholic and Byzantine Catholic Church in the neighborhood, I've never seen the St. Michael's people attend church in jeans and sneakers. Of course, I have to admit that the Roman parishes who have a sister relationship with inner city parishes that are predominantly African American are put to complete shame when those good people attend Mass in the suburbs -- they are always dressed in recognition that they are setting foot in Our Father's House.

Khrystyna

David, I can see how you could come to the conclusion that there is not much for a server to do in today's Roman mass, but communities differ and not all of them offer the "minimalistic, in an out" mass that I think you are referencing (although too many of them seem to). In liturgically aware parishes, the mass can take on so many different variables, that it can be a truly meaningful and uplifting experience to some. In many places, incense is regularly used, processions take place more than just at the entrance processionals and recessionals (i.e.: the Gospel procession, the offertory procession, other processions for varying rituals and symbolic rites, etc.) and all these could/should be accompanied by candles, cross, other needed items and perhaps incense.

I am aware that a great many American RC parishes do not always put the time and effort into planning and executing enhanced liturgies and are content to stick with a more minimalistic, utilitarian form of the mass, but there are parishes where they "do" very good liturgy and it can be a moving experience. The post-concilliar liturgy leaves room for the incorporation of so many different liturgical and para-liturgical components and this is where the presence of multiple servers would come into play. On the other hand, the Tridentine liturgy, while when offered solemnly, surely was beautiful, the average parish had many more "low" masses than "high" ones and the whole service could often be rendered in a half hour or less, with hushed or mumbled rituals in Latin, that the people had no participation in. Today, RC masses can last much longer and be a lot more involved in a communal sense.

It is true that the function of the deacon in the Latin rite is not nearly as involved as in the Byzantine liturgy, but still, he performs an important liturgical role. Yes, he takes parts that the priest himself performs in the absence of a deacon, ("just as the deacon seems to be an after thought, he just takes prayers and role that the priest does if he isn't there . . . ") but this is also true in our liturgy. Without a deacon, the Byzantine priest fulfills approximately 95 per cent of the diaconal roles himself and there are very few rubrics that are not taken when a deacon does not serve (so few, that I cannot think of any on the spot).

Latin rite readers may not be "ordained" lectors in the strict sense, as many of our cantors/readers are also not ordained (although many should be), but they are still lectors - ones who perform the reading of scripture and could be called such. Even in our liturgikon, the one who reads the epistle is called the "lector" even though again, most are not ordained. The book that Roman lectors carry in procession is most often not the Gospel Book per say, but rather, the "lectionary" which as you all know, contains not merely the Gospel readings, but all of the scriptural selections for the liturgical year (OT, NT, psalms, alleluia verses).

I don't mean to be argumentative, but do wish to draw attention to the fact that the Roman Catholic liturgy, when celebrated with dignity, wise and timely choices of variable parts and the proper time devoted to preparation on the part of priests, deacons, servers, lectors, other ministers and choirs, can be a spiritually moving experience, as some others have noted on this forum in the past. Consider the mass as celebrated by the Roman Pontiff in St. Peter's Basilica and elsewhere. I've always thought that these liturgies are among the most beautiful I've witnessed in the Latin Church. They are executed using some of the most desirable of both contemporary and traditional music and include the participation of a wide variety of clergy and ministers, (for some functions, both male and female). To me, these services go beyond the dignity of the mass as seen on EWTN which, while itself beautiful, tends to be in my opinion, rather stringent, unchanging and at times, merely functionary. (Just my own observation).

As to the deacon being a type of "junior priest" - this could be the feeling one gets, I suppose, but, although his role is much more involved in the East, it is also the case in the Byzantine liturgy, in that most of the deacon's parts are performed by the priest in an average parish lacking a deacon.

Whether we like the mass or not, I think we need to give credit to the current Roman liturgy, for the ability to, when celebrated with the greatest potential, produce a dignified and meaningful celebration. Naturally, we all have our likes an dislikes and some liturgies will appeal to us while others do not. What's important is that we all love the liturgy for what it is - the celebration of the Lord's Supper and our chance to encounter the Eucharistic Christ.

All in all, in the final analysis, I will offer the sentiments once related to me by my mother of blessed memory, who, when I was once critiquing this or that Roman parish's manner of celebration, told me, "It is the liturgy and as such, is always beautiful." There is wisdom to that saying, because of the nature of the liturgy or the mass as the "spiritual sacrifice" which is the heart of the church's life and ministry.

Fr. Joe

Anhelyna and Krystyna:

Both of you have made excellent observations. God bless you for your love of and devotion to His church. I would be grateful to have more parishioners like yourselves. David, your love for the liturgy is also apparent in that it makes an important difference to you in the amount of spiritual nourishing derived from it. God bless you all.

Fr. Joe

I have a difficult time understanding how a parish can have no boys serving or wanting to serve. We have tons of them at our parish and they are well behaved. I don't buy that 'misbehavior' argument since our squirmy boy snapped into better behavior when he began serving. And we have girls singing in our schola who do a fine job - even at crownings and funerals. Getting those Podoben tones down!

I am not aware of our bishops introducing altar girls in our eparchy. Will this be promoted eparchy-wide? Will they be able to assist the eucharistic ministers in distributing communion?

Is the parish that Elizabeth attends so small that there are no boys?

Personally, if a parish has boys and none of them are serving at the altar, then the burden is on the priest for why there is no desire (or support?) for them to serve. Sorry.

Why is it that we cant just follow the rules.I know that everybody says that in there parish they do things different or the Orthodox do it this way and the Byzantines do it this way.So where does it say that we can have female alter servers.And I want examples out of Byzantine litature and not Vat 2 or any latin sources.

Dear Father Joe,

I wanted to say I find your posts interesting, well-thought out, internally consistent, informative, and stimulating.

You are a gentleman, scholar, and man of God,

Axios

I must be out of the loop regarding all the new ministries being instituted in my own eparchy. I've heard about pastoral ministers, eucharistic ministers, and Mary Martha servers here and there. Will we also introduce the Stephen Ministry of lay deacons(?) or the like similar to the ministers they have at my wife's former Latin parish? For those parishes that are introducing these ministries, are they also trying hard to re-introduce minor orders? Would minor orders conflict or be considered obsolete? Just wondering.

Let's see, if we get to the point where the greatest problem we have is too many people interested in ministry and the life of the Church, we will be doing better than any other era in the history of the world.

Axios

I too would like to see where the Bishops of the Ruthenian Byzantine Rite have stated that women, either young or old can serve behind the iconostats during Divine Liturgy.
I have found that when there are not enough altar boys there are a couple of main reasons; the priest does not expect the families of boys to have their boys with him on the altar, does not train them that it is their responsability to be there on the altar from a young age, and women often play a power-play to empower their daughters!
It has been shown that when a priest does not support the roles of men and boys in the Parish then there is less participation. Men and boys will not play power-play games to serve or volunteer. If there are domineering women and milk-toast priests, the men will say, "I'm not putting up with this, they can have it." To say no boys are available to serve is an excuse! There are probably over forty young boys from 9 to 19 in our small parish who serve. Those parishes who are traditional and orthodox, that teach what should be taught seem not to have a problem.
What about minor orders? Is this a reason why minor orders may not come back? What would you do when you have a "Reader". Would the teenage girl still get to read instead of the ordained reader.
Lets not fool ourselves, the abondonment of our families by their fathers has prevented our society and Church to be less accepting of a "manly" role. I too come from a single mom. She always made sure I had real men role models in the Church and out in the society.
You can say what you want, but if you do not give distinctive roles to men and boys, and women are pushing for the roles, you will only have women! Not even to talk about "blood" behind the altar or other theological issues. Oh yeh, I would like to see a directive from the Bishops.

If such ministries are considered OK, then why the lack of promotion eparchy-wide? Why the stealth? This raises suspicion and concern, especially to those communities that don't quite know what is going on elsewhere in the eparchy. Why have some parishes adopted new ministries while others are clueless about their existence?

The lack of minor orders gave rise to other solutions or replacement ministries. The lack of deacons, sub-deacons, and ordained cantors have given rise to many creative and round-a-bout unofficial ministries such as "certified" and dispensable volunteer cantors, Mary Martha servers, and not-so-extraordinary eucharistic ministers. There is an advantage in that they are less costly and that education and formation is not necessary.

Why are these new innovative ministries being introduced (many of which are simply blind copies of what the Latins are doing), but not those that have been on the books for centuries? This question still goes unanswered. Does the introduction of these particular ministries have anything to do with the Vatican II mandate to return to our valid traditions and restore those things lost due to people and circumstances? Or does that only apply to the liturgy and not ministry?