www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Altar Girls in the Ruthenian Byzantine Rite

I am sorry but your characterization of "domineering women" really provides a disservice to those good women in parishes in both the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches who give of themselves in ministries. This seems more to do with bias then about preserving our tradition.

nwappleseed:

Of course, we could just tonsure women readers... the Greek Orthodox Metropolitan Maximos of Pittsburgh tonsured a woman a reader and she was even granted the higher distinction of wearing a riassa. She attends St. Vladimir's Chapel occasionally for "big events." (Disclaimer: I am not claiming St. Vladimir's or the OCA supports this or does not support this but am rather merely reporting a fact.)

In Christ,

anastasios

So my question still stands.

I hear alot about Orthodox traditions, deaconesses, and other liturgical acceptable functions. I ask what orthodox group? The Greeks, Russians, Syrians, Bulgarians, Ukrainians, etc....? What time frame, 1400, 1300, 1200, 1100, 1000, etc.?
My thread is within the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church. Have our Ruthenian Bishops formally approved the change to allow women on the altar and other issues mentioned especially by Joe T. I find the same tactics that have been used in the Latin Rite are now being waged on the traditions of the Ruthenian Byzantine Rite.

Tis a pitty, that once again, the substance of the point is lost on the surface issues. It isn't about equality of men and women and it isn't about if we don't have male altar servers. It's a question of faith. WHY don't we have enough male servers? Is it possibly the same reason we have a vocation crisis in so many areas of the church? The crisis of the Church begins as a crisis of the domestic church; the family. It is here that faith is nutured. Service to the church is an extension of the faith LIVED. If it isn't then we will have one crisis after another.
My second point is that women and men are different! Why can't we accept that is how God made us??? Seperate but equal is acceptable. We have different gifts that balance us. If we both serve the same purpose, something is lost. The sum of the parts is NOT greater than the whole in this case. Women have a role, and a very important one in the church. I submit to this forum that it has only exceptionally been one that involved formal liturgical service in the history of our church. Women have always been the rudder with men at the helm. If the rudder wants to drive, who will guide? Isn't that what the Theotokos does? She GUIDES us to her son. She IS the rudder.
Lastly: Mary Martha servers?!!! What is THAT???
Hmmm, let look at Mary and Martha shall we? Mary was busy serving at table and all preoccupied. Jesus reminds us that her SERVICE was secondary. That MARY had Chosen the BETTER portion. This portion was what? CONTEMPLATION!!! Hmmm, does this reak of monasticism? Humility? Naaahh, couldn't be there in the GOSPEL!!! Women do not serve on the altar because they can't or because it is intrinsically wrong. They don't serve because in the BIG picture, it isn't functional for the church in it's entirety. Women are called to choose the better portion, because God gave them the gift to be best at it. Isn't Mary demonstrative of this in her action AND her gender???

Your servant in Christ,
Athanasius

Canon 707 of our particular law for the Metropolia of Pittsburgh is quite clear about the prohibition of women at the altar. That women "serve" by holding the communion cloth or the Gospel book, or perform the functions of the minor orders of cantor and/or lector is not a violation of the canon, since these actions take place outside of the altar (the altar is the area behind the iconostas). Strictly speaking, boys and men who have not received the order of subdeacon do not belong at the altar since only ordained ministers are allowed to serve at the altar. At one time the subdiaconate was considered a major order because it was with this ordination that a man could begin his service at the altar. The minor orders of candle-bearer, cantor, and lector are for service on the nave side of the icon screen, and the practice of the Church has not prohibited women from serving in these roles.

So what is the purpose of vesting to hold a cloth outside the altar if one cannot fully serve inside the altar? Do not sub-deacons serve inside the altar?

For those who serve at the altar, who many cannot, by right, distribute communion ... we have instituted a ministry of people who do nothing but distribute communion or assist in it. The argument of inside-outside altar fails because I see no girls holding ripidia or candles during communion, they are chosen to assist at communion distribution by holding the cloth. It is deliberate.

Many have made a pitch for these new ministries, but has any made a second pitch for the minor orders? It seems that this is the obvious quirk of the unfairness. Its not what is being instituted, but what is being totally overlooked and ignored. But, of course, re-instituting minor orders will be a challenge and a threat to those involved only in the ministry of distributing communion. It will mean the loss of their jobs. I hardly see those who are promoting these new ministries will approve of older (and still active) forms of ministry.

Why aren't these ministries taught or promoted? This doesn't seem to be an eparcy-wide program, but instead, a parish-by-parish approval. Will they show up in our ECF educational material or, like other Latinizations, just be done without comment with an eye looking the other way? If a minor change occurs in our way of cantoring or liturgy, there are instructions. In this, I fail to see any eparchial instructions or any letter educating the laity. What are we to think now?

To remind you guys once again, there are no girls serving on the altar. Such a thing would never happen in our church. We have many elderly people in our parish and have never had enough boys to hold the communion cloth. There have been times when the Eucharist has fallen because nobody was there to hold the cloth.

Somebody could say, it's your priest's fault that you don't have enough boys, or your elderly parishoners should hold the cloth correctly. This is the real world, though, and these are real people. We have no feminist agenda at our church and I think you should realize that our parish would be just as horrified to see females serving at the altar.

Perhaps I should not have responded to the string on the first page, and let others continue to fabricate stories (because that's what's happening now). It seemed unthinkable, however, to let nwappleseed speak about my priest and my bishop in such a negative way without saying something.

Our parish has no interest in spreading the practice of Martha Mary servers any day soon and I'm sure Bishop John would say the same. Please trust God enough to trust him to do his job. Our parish has been struggling to stay alive and Martha Mary servers have been one way to increase parish involvement. There are no girls serving on the altar, and there never will be. I would appreciate your prayers instead of criticisms.

With Christ's love,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth,
Glory to Jesus Christ!
In your short posting you have placed many of the issues facing a small parish before us. It is exemplary that despite the struggles you are facing that foremost in your efforts is keeping the Divine Liturgy celebrated as Eastern Christians. Too many of our parishes have been closed when people �melt away� from the central aspects of the expression of their faith and wind up like the proverbial seeds sown on hard ground or thorny bushes. At a time when many of our young people are most inclined to back away from parish involvement, the few young people you have are to be commended for their desire to be involved with their Church. It is significant that they are functioning within the framework of the Church, under the guidance and approval of their shepherd, Bishop John.
My prayers are with you for continued faith and growth in numbers. Although it may take a while, we also pray that this growth encompass vocations for the proper number of priests, deacons, minor orders and servers.
Deacon El

Dear Father Joe,

Thank you for your kind words!

And I agree with you, the Mass on EWTN, while beautiful, seems a little too rote to me also, it lacks "heart".

In Christ,

Khrystyna

My apologies to Elizabeth if you felt my intention was to speak about your priest and Bishop John in a negative way. Bishop John is a wonderfull bishop and individual. I am sure your priest is also. The intentions of the thread were out of concern for tradition, participation, heart felt adoration of our Byzantine Rite, and "fear" that practices creeping in will lead us down the slippery slope as what has happened in the west. If we do not know and understand history, it will reoccur once again. May God help us use all the tools we have to further His mission on earth. S'Nami Boh!

Anastasios,

I believe that it was Metropolitan Philip of the Antiochian Archdiocese, not Metropolitan Maximos, who tonsured women readers.

-Dave

Elizabeth,

God bless you and your community of faith. Don't take seriously "slippery slope" agruments.

Axios

So we have established that women cannot serve at the alter.But is this being inforced in the Byzantine Catholic churches?? I personally like the idea of the priest finding men when there is a shortage of boys. I would never think of saying no.

He may do so as well, but the woman I am referring to I know was tonsured by Metropolitan Maximos of Pittsburgh specifically. She has a PhD in Byzantine Chant, and is in the Greek Archdiocese.

In Christ,

anastasios