www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Prosphora traditions vs. pre-cut loaf

dear David-Ignatius:

I am not sure what you mean by "the rest of the loaf". Do you mean the "Commemoration Particles"? Or do you mean the "ends of the loaf" that will eventually be used for Antidoron? Or do you mean the left overs that will be used for the Zapivka ablutions?

If you are talking about the bread for Zapivka, I don't believe that that is blessed at all. It's just an ablution, I guess.

If you are asking when Antidoron, I believe the proper time to bless it is during the Anaphora, after the epiklesis, some time around the Hymn to the Theotokos.

(But let me hasten to add that I have never seen any rule or "rubric" dealing with this question or gotten reference/citation from a priest concerning this issue, so am very open to better information as to when Antidoron should be blessed.)

(I've seen priests pass the Antidoron over the Holy Gifts in a Cross gesture. Anyone know what that's all about? )

I think some priests do it after after the distribution of Communion after the Holy Mysteries are transfered to the proskomidinyk. I suspect they do it here mostly for convenience, but that is just a guess.

I believe that is correct. The deacon at our parish informed me so, that the Commemoration Particles should Not be consecrated/sanctified.

He pointed out (convincingly) that the directions on how to divide the Lamb [e.g. the IC piece for the Potir, XC for the Communion of the clergy] clearly indicate that the Congregation should be communicated from the NI & KA pieces. Thus not from all the Particles. Besides which, aren't the Commemoration Particles too small - after all, they are only "particles" no?

According to the Saint Elias webpage:

cf. http://www.saintelias.com/Liturgy_elia/Dismissal_elia/Dismissal_elia.html

I believe that at the fraction, the Priest breaks the Lamb into at 4 pieces, 1 for the Potir, 1 for the Communion of the Clergy and 2 for the Communion of the Congregation.

I believe at this point, the Communion portions can be further "sub-fractioned"/broken into sufficient pieces for the clergy and laity.

I am not sure what one would do if the bread was precut. I suppose this is why liturgists and liturgiologists like Archimandrite Robert (Taft SJ) get so ryled up over pre-cuts. They think it kind of vitiates the whole fraction rite and all that that means. I don't think the Orthodox use precuts - even in big Cathedrals with many, many communicants, even on big occasions or feasts.

Almost forget to mention the Zeon. (Boiling water to be poured into the Holy Cup after the IC portion is placed therein.) Also making a slow but steady comeback in the "Kyivan Orthodox Church in Communion with Rome".

Herb

I have a supplementary question.

Anyone know what the Greeks do?

They use 1 very large Prosphoron. Their seal has 3 Lambs on it.

I think they also use oil for the prosphora?

Herb

Thanks for the replies...

My question about the usual time for blessing the bread was in reference to the antidoron. In the OCA parish we used to attend I remember seeing the priest wave the bread (in the form of a cross) over the gifts at some point. I don't know if this is universal in Orthodox practice or not. Is the timing of this around the commemoration of the Theotokos? I don't remember. Anyone? Also, is this practice universal in Orthodox practice? Or, is this a Slavic practice?

I'm assuming with the disappearance of the practice of antidoron in most Ruthenian parishes that this is not done in Ruthenian practice today. Or is it done in some places?

Thanks, Herbigny, for the reference to the St Elias site on what happens to the commemorative pieces. I thought I had heard they were not to be consecrated and that their being immersed in the Chalice graphically showed our redemption in Christ's Blood.

Does Byzantine Catholic practice mirror this? Or, are these pieces consecrated in current practice and served in the Chalice to the congregation?

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Just came across this well-written explanation of prosphora bread:

http://www.theologic.com/oflweb/inchurch/prosphor.htm

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

The bread for zapivka (ablution, cleansing mouth, etc.) given after communion is basically from the same loaves as antidoron and blessed with the antidoron. In many churches both are in the same basket and antidoron is given out from what's left after the communion zapivka. There is no hard and fast rule on the timing of the antidoron/zapivka blessing, it can be done at the conclusion of the Proskomidia or later in the Liturgy after the Epiklesis, just after the addition of the teplota.

Friends,

Regarding the use of pre-cut prosphora, the same particles used for the commemorations are used for communion. They are all 1/4 inch cubes and the proskomede is done and all prays are said even though there is no cutting of the lamb from the loaf. After all the commemorations are made the rest are just piled on the diskos. The lamb is also pre-cut usually a 2x2x1/4 inch square. It is cut crosswise and pierced at the proskomede and fractioned by the priest before his communion.

It would be my guess that the majority of Ruthenian parishes use pre-cut, Ukrainians are probably 50/50 and the Melkites probably all use whole prosphora.

Also the prayer:
"O Lord, wash away by Your precious Blood the sins of all those remembered here, by the prayers of all Your saints."
is from the Russian Recension, the Ruthenian Recension does not have this prayer. Although I don't think there would be any harm in adopting this practice if the commemoration particles are kept on the diskos and not used for Communion. However, I think most would consider them consecrated, they are just not used because they are so small. In any case they would be considered sanctified after being put into the Chalice, kind of the reverse of Pre-sanctified where the wine is considered sanctified by its comingling with the Pre-sanctified Particles.

In Christ,
Lance

Thanks, Lance, for the information.

I had wondered if perhaps that prayer was just a Russian tradition but as I was researching this late last night I came across this on the Greek Archdiocese's website:

http://www.goarch.org/en/Chapel/liturgical_texts/liturgy_hchc.asp

So, if the tradition of not consecrating the commemorative particles and having a special time for their immersion in the Chalice after Communion is in both the Greek and Russian traditions, how did we lose that?

Why has our Church lost these beautiful prosphora traditions?

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dave,

The Ruthenian Recension is more ancient than either the Russian or current Greek Recension both of which have undergone reform. We did not lose this tradition, rather we never had it and did not add it which the Russians and Greeks did. Again I think it is a beautiful custom and prayer and if I am ordained a deacon will probably do it if the priest I am serving with leaves the commerative particles for me to do it with.

In Christ,
Lance

What evidence is there that the Ruthenian tradition in this instance is more ancient? So, originally the Greek and Russian practice was to consecrate the commemorative particles and put them in the Chalice and serve them as part of Communion? Is there any evidence for this?

Now that I understand the Orthodox practice re: the commemorations and their being immersed in the Chalice post-Communion it makes perfect sense. If this is a later development it would seem awfully strange...but if someone can cite evidence to the contrary I'd be interested in seeing it.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dave,

The Ruthenian Recension is considered more ancient in all instances by liturgical scholars as far as I know. The Russian Recension is primarily the Nikonian Usage which in turn was based upon the usages current among the Greeks of the time. However, these usages were not the most ancient usages of the Greeks and liturgical manuscripts from both Grottaferrata and Athos show this. This was a primary reason the Old Believers rejected these innovations and one will find many similarities between the Ruthenian Recension and the Old Russian Recension, not withstanding practices that are peculiar to the Old Russians alone and were in place by the time of Nikon's reforms and so they thought them ancient.

In Christ,
Lance

Just to clarify:

So, the oldest practice (which the Ruthenian recension shows) is that the commemorative pieces are consecrated with the Lamb and served at Communion to the faithful?

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dave,

No, the Ruthenian Recension does specify that the communion of the faithful come from the NI KA particles it just does not specify the prayer from the Russian Recension: "O Lord, wash away by Your precious Blood the sins of all those remembered here, by the prayers of all Your saints" after Communion.

I am at work so I don't have my Ordo to reference but I think it is tells the deacon to "with all care put all the particles from the diskos into the chalice." I will check on that when I get home and post what it says.

In Christ,
Lance

Just for clarification, the Ruthenian Recension as promulgated officially in the Ordo Celebrationis of 1944 is very similar to the post-Niconoian Russian usage, including the timing of the opening and closing of the Holy Doors which is not done according to the ordo in most parishes. The Ruthenian Recension has been revised before and after the unions of Brest and Uzhorod. It is certainly not as ancient as the pre-Nikonian Ordo in use by the Old Believers.

As for the prayer "O Lord wash away your blood..." I know of some Ukrainian priests who use this, so this may be simply an ommission rather than a reflection of a more ancient usage.

The Old Believer parishes in communion with the Ukrainian Catholic Church can say with some certainty that their ordo is more ancient.

I don't think the percentage of Ukrainian priests who use pre-cut prosphora is anywhere near 50%. I don't know of any in our eparchy anymore who use this practice but there still may be a couple. Our local pastor takes care of three separate parishes in two states and he still does the entire proskomidia for each celebration of the Divine Liturgy. I do know of some in the Ruthenian church who still follow this practice.

There is no specific requirement that the person who cuts the prosphora need to be clergy. The minor clergy and specificially the subdeacon is ordained for service at the altar. The particular law at least for the UGCC is pretty clear about having ordained clergy perform duties at the altar.

But most parishes don't have the luxury of ordained minor clergy and often even a deacon. I taught my oldest son when and how to do it when I can't attend for whatever reason, and he does well, in addition to boiling the water for teplota and getting some other things prepared. It actually gives the boys an additional sense of responsibility that they are proud of.

Dave,

Both the Ordo Celebrationis published by ECP and the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom published by the Byzantine Seminary instruct the deacon to place all the particles into the chalice so that not even the smallest particle remains on the diskos.

In Christ,
Lance

Thanks, Lance, for the info. I came across this post on the CINEAST archives that describes how the commemorations are made at Holy Resurrection Monastery (Ruthenian) in Newberry Springs, California. It also shows the traditional symbolism of immersing these particles in the Precious Blood after Communion.

http://www.cin.org/archives/cineast/199706/0086.html

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com