www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Prosphora traditions vs. pre-cut loaf

A couple of weeks ago I came across this fascinating explanation of the Proskomidia service before the Divine Liturgy on the website of St Elias (Ukrainian Greek Catholic) in Toronto:

http://www.saintelias.com/Liturgy_elia/Proskomidia_elia/Proskomidia_elia.htm

Is this an anomaly in the Ukrainian Catholic Church...do most use a pre-cut prosphora loaf or do many of them use the traditional prosphora loaf with seal?

Are there any Ruthenian parishes which use the traditional prosphora loaf for Liturgy? Also, what is the practice in Ukraine and Slovakia?

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

dear D-I:

Well, it's certain not an "anomaly", since this is what the "Nomos" (law) describes for our Church.

It's actually the pre-cut "croutons" popped out of the tupperware containers that are a-nomolous. :rolleyes:

But I must admit, I believe you are right, statistically. At least in my little experience, many, many parishes go the "crouton" route - though the priest will actually say the prescribed prayers (but I'm not sure what they do with the "croutons" - maybe make prefunctory gestures approximating what they are supposed to do? I don't know.

But I am also happy to report that the "nomalous" and correct practice is making a revival, especially amongst the younger clergy.

The practice of using Real prosphora is not only according to the canons and rubrics:

It is so much nicer.

One can have multiple intentions! (so the clergy should kvetch; nor the people for that matter)

and

You get bigger "pieces" of the Holy Gifts! (which at least for me is the preferred experience)

Happy St. Stephen the ProtoMartyr (new Cal.) and St. Stephen of Sourozh (old Cal.)

Herb

Thanks for the reply.

How did the practice of using pre-cut prosphora evolve into being? Is it a new world development? Do Ruthenian and Ukrainian parishes in Europe use the traditional prosphora loaves?

Does anyone know the practice of the Carpatho-Russian Diocese? Have they retained pre-cut prosphora loaves? Or, have they restored the traditional practice?

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dave, the full ordo of the proskomidia calls for five prosphora loaves to be used and particles from each loaf are lifted in a prescribed order and placed on the diskos. In my experience have only seen the pre-cut prosphora approach used at Ruthenian parishes, but I'm sure there were other jurisdictions that followed this abuse as well.

I think part of the problem was the tendency to make aspects of the liturgy more "convenient" and cut down as much time as possible, so the particles were pre-cut and the priest could rip through the proskomidia. It may also be due to the fact that some priests in the USA live at a distance from the church and with the travel time they take care of the proskomidia or at least cutting out the loaves the night before.

This is a real shame, as the actions of the proskomidia (the stabbing with the lance, etc.) are so profound, symbolic and such an important part of the service. I have a priest friend who performs the proskomidia outside of the iconostasis in a corner of the knave to give a sense of the service in the diakonikon.

In Ukraine most all of the larger parishes use five prosphora loaves partly because of the number of communicants. Also if you use five prosphora there is plenty of antidoron left for people to consume. If you have a small parish you can offer the antidoron both after Communion and at the end of the Liturgy.

The prosphora traditions are beautiful and deep in meaning. It is good to see these again placed in use in Greek Catholic parishes.

Dave and all,

At St. Thomas Byzantine Church in Gilbert AZ the prosphora bakers prepare a standard loaf complete with the seal. Then, they cut out the lamb, and enough particles for the communicants and for antidoron (the unconsecrated bread offered after communion to everyone present). There is a prescribed number of pieces for the chalice, based on historical data about the number of communicants per Sunday. The priest then performs the proskomedia prayers, but doesn't have to deal with cutting up most of the loaf himself.

When I was in an OCA parish, the priest would have to perform proskomedia with a complete loaf, then would hand over the part for antidoron to a server who then cut it up and made it available at the end of the Liturgy. It made for a certain amount of pressure right before the service that is not present within the Ruthenian custom.

Jim

Jim, if a parish has a deacon or subdeacon, there shouldn't be any "pressure" and this can easily be done according to the typikon. If you have a reader reading the Hours or pre-Communion prayers/canon during the Proskomidia before the Liturgy, there is plenty of time to complete the Proskomidia including cutting the antidoron. The cutting of the prosphora (at least the lamb and the particles placed on the diskos) should be performed by a priest with the assistance of a deacon.

dear Jim:

I'm a little confused (not an unfamiliar experience with me), perhaps you could clarify...

Are you saying:

- that the person who bakes the prosphora does the cutting?

- that they cut out the Lamb PLUS Communion Particles? (Aren't they the same? That is, don't the portions used for Communion [whether people or clergy] come from the Lamb?)

- do they cut out the commemoration Particles as well (those for the Angels, Unmercenaries, Ancestors of Christ, Martyrs, Prophets, etc. as well as those "Intentions" of Prayer Living and Dead requested by the congregation)?

thanks.

Herb.

ps:

- Actually, I believe, the Antidoron can be cut by anyone, there is no Service/Order for it. It is often done by Servers during the Sermon. But it can be done before, if it does not come from the Prosphora (and the left over Prosphora bits can be thrown in with it).

- and a lot of the finer cutting is done at the fraction rite (right before Communion) or during the distribution of the Holy Mysteries (by the Priest with the Liturgical Spoon [depending on how many communicants]).

Christ is Born !!!
Glorify Him !!!

St. Elias truly has a wonderful and informative website. It seems to me that the Romanian custom of offering food at the north door is a wonderful idea. We can use the left front of the Church as a food bank! Especially if we throw out the pews!

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To quote from the St. Elias website:

"It was there that the faithful would bring their gifts of bread and wine etc. Some of the gifts would be prepared for use at Divine Liturgy and others would be distributed to the poor and needy by the deacons.

To this day, in Romanian Churches, the faithful come to the north deacon door with a candle and loaf of bread and offer these to the Church. And a deacon or priest who is appointed this duty and attends at the north Deacon door to receiving these offerings of the faithful."

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The Latin Church has a practice of bringing the gifts forward during the Liturgy. Usually the ushers draft a family for the purpose. There is a sense of participation created by such simple things.

I wonder if the trend is toward more active participation by the faithful, or away from it? The idea of bringing food to the north door just before Liturgy, for distibution to the poor, seems a good idea to connect Liturgy to Charity.

The last time we brought in food, for an announced collection effort, we were sent to the far side of the parish hall, where there were a few boxes to dump stuff in. Obviously, boxes would still be needed, but the visibility of the ministry would be enhanced, were it tied into the Liturgy.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

My priest does the full proskomedia prayers of the Prosphora bread before Divine Liturgy..he takes the Lamb out, cut out triangle portion representing Theotokos, cut out portions representing the Holy Apostles and cut out portions representing the people he prays for. He does all the prayers...incensing...etc..everything the way it should be...the full tradition of it. SO it's quite cool to watch him do all of that. People seem to take that for granted as many parishes don't do that for whatever reasons.

It's only VERY RARELY he uses the tupperware for the precut pieces for people to receive communion...only in time constraints..but he would still do the full prayers...still cut out the Lamb and all of that...just sometimes don't have time to cut out pieces for communion part.

SO it's great to see him do all of that.

Also, we still give out Blessed Bread after Church...when people come up to kiss the Cross. SO it's good to see that we do that.

I've baked Prosphoras many times before...sometimes it's a challenge to make it perfect..depending on the weather...temperature...etc. Kinda tricky...I guess one would have to know the tricks to over come any problems baking it.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Diak is correct with regard to what can be done if there is a deacon or subdeacon. However, if there is not, and there is only one server who also needs to change out candles, courier messages to the priest, etc. the cutting of the remaining bread can cause less opportunity to participate through prayer in the liturgy itself. Depends on staffing and the church's layout, I suppose. The OCA parish I mentioned frequently was short-staffed behind the iconostasis. The Byzantine parish is not.

Jim

A priest friend wants me to help him make a videotape on "how to make prosphora"... I don't think there is anything like that out there currently. Speaking of St. Elias, I have been using Archpriest Roman (Galadza's) prosphora recipe for years and it works great.

For all of you hard-core prosphora bakers, there is a website www.prosphora.org [prosphora.org] with all kinds of cool stuff. I also posted the Kyivan version of the prosphora bakers' preparation prayers I use a few months ago and can repost if anyone is interested.

Another project I think would be informative is a brief overview of what happens to the prosphora loaf (loaves) not only during the proskomidia but also during the Liturgy. Some questions I have:

Is there a usual time during the Liturgy when the rest of the loaf (the "Lamb" having been consecrated) is blessed? Does that vary in different Byzantine Churches?

Only the Lamb is consecrated, right? Or, are the other pieces on the paten consecrated (for the Theotokos and saints and those for whom the priest and the people pray)? If not consecrated, what happens to those pieces? Are they served in the chalice?

Also, what exactly happens at the fraction? How is that different with the traditional Lamb versus pre-cut pieces?

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

At my old Ruthenian parish, they used a very small prosphora loaf. It was always baked by a Franciscan nun who lived next to the chapel so there wasn't a tradition of different people bringing prosphora. The priest always performed the proskomidia service before liturgy. Divine liturgy had to be on Saturday night, so we didn't have vespers or orthros. Instead, the priest performed the proskomidia during the half hour before liturgy.

Today was my saint's name day (Joseph) so I got to bring prosphora to my Orthodox parish.

What a source of information this thread is proving to be.

I had always wondered about the preparation - but had never really been able to understand exactly what was happening - my experiences being in Lourdes, with so few there until that last time in October - and even then I cannot honestly say I was aware of the Proskomidia.

Angela

SPDundas: Yes, right after the priest incenses the Consecrated gifts after his prayers of Consecration (Ekelpisis sp?) when the priest concludes..."Especially our all holy immaculate Lady Theotokos and ever virgin Mary" then that's when the server brings the rest of the prosphora bread for it to be blessed (not consecrated).
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SPDundas: Everything that's on the Diskos (aka Paten)(AND that's on the consecrated antimension) is consecrated. There would be NOTHING that's NOT consecrated to be put inside of the Consecrated wine in the Holy Chalice.
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SPDundas: Even pre-cut pieces that is put on the diskos would be consecrated.