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On this board and from the mouth of my pastor I have started hearing about the feast of the Nativity of Our Lord being the celebration of His "incarnation."

But I always thought that the Incarnation of the Logos, the Son of God, took place at the time of the Annunciation. That is, "incarnation" = "taking flesh". Jesus "took flesh" when he was conceived in the womb of Mary. Being born is not "taking flesh" since a newborn child is already nine months "old".

Was Jesus not really "flesh" (incarnate) until the Theotokos gave birth to him? If that's the case, then why should we get so upset about abortion?

What is it about "being born" into the world that is theologically significant as opposed to being conceived (when life actually begins)? Besides the fact that in our culture (and most others, I'd guess) we mark birth dates (dates we can know for sure) -- as opposed to conception dates (which we can probably only guess at).

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You are entirely correct! And a seminary graduate and Archpriest was making the same error until I corrected him. Please hold your ground and remember that the Incarnation/Annunciation was a secret and quiet arrival while the Nativity was proclaimed and recognized. These explain differences between how we celebrate these two feasts.

With love in Christ.

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This is rather strange .

Despite being a convert to the RC Church I have always understood that Christmas was the Feast of the Nativity, the celebration of Christ's birth which the angels announced to all of us at that time.

I have never had any problem with the Annunciation being a celebration of the Incarnation of Our Saviour. Indeed when I pray the Rosary the first Joyful Mystery , the Annunciation ,[ as I follow one of St Louis de Montfort's methods of prayer] I insert the word Incarnate into the Hail Mary

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb , Jesus Incarnate. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

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Dear Lemko Rusyn,

Please recall that in the past people marked neither conception nor birth, but their nameday!
Having been raised in the Church, our family still celebrates namedays, not birthdays! (My wife's would actually have been the Annunciation, but the communists denied her parents that name. So treasure your Christian name!).

The only document about most of our ancient ancestors has been their baptismal record. From that record, we could guess the person's age within a year or two in most cases.

Warm regards.

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Christos Razdajetsja!

Once again tonight our pastor told us that this is the Feast of the Incarnation. Oh well. It was a wonderful liturgical celebration whatever it was.

Glad to be Byzantine Catholic! smile

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The full title of the feast in English is "The Nativity according to the Flesh of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ". The Incarnation is a later Scholastic term that has crept even into usage amongst Greek Catholics for Christmas. But you are right, strictly speaking the Annunciation is the feast of the Incarnation.

I like Alexander Schmemann's term "Winter Pascha" better for describing Christmas and Theophany as they both point to and prefigure the glorious Pascha. Christ was born to die, and baptized to rise.

Christos Rozhdayetsya!

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It's interesting to note that refering to the Nativity as Feast of the Incarnation - as a shorthand for the first, public manifestation of the Incarnation - enjoys wide use. In a Chrsitmas message, Patriarch Alexy II writes:
"Again and again I congratulate you from the bottom of my heart on the great feast of the Incarnation of God the Word..."

Here's a link to an interesting discussion that underscores the significance of this terminiology in contemporary bioethics.
http://www.all.org/abac/clontx10.htm

A tangential point: the discussion at this site makes it hard to understand how the scholastics would have been associated with introduction of the term Incarnation for the Feast of the Nativity.

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djs - I was referring not to the use of the term incarnation itself but to its use by scholastic and post-scholastic Latins to describe only the feast of the Nativity.

In the Latin Church the Annunciation has been downplayed in festal status while in the East, even if it occurs in Great and Holy Week, is it celebrated with much solemnity as one of the twelve great feasts, and depending on when it falls, with a Great Compline like Christmas and Theophany.

And in our tradition of lex orandi, lex credendi, we sing in one of the Litya hymns at the Great Compline of the Annunciation, "O marvel! God has come among men; He who cannot be contained is contained in a womb; the Timeless enters time; and strange wonder! His conception is without seed, His emptying is past telling: so great is this mystery! For God empties himself, takes flesh, and is fashioned as a creature... I believe "taking flesh" is at the heart of "incarnation".

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St Vlad's Seminary Press publishes a translation of St Athanasius' On the Incarnation. One would be hard pressed to call his book a teaching on the birth of Christ, yet St Vlad's chose the Nativity icon for the cover. Would you say scholasticism has crept into SVS Press as well?

!Cristo ha Nacido!

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Dear Bisantino,

Scholasticism has definitely crept into SVS and her press! I studied there and you just confirmed it!

In Christ.

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The link I gave quotes liberally from a book "Redeemer in the Womb" John Saward a Catholic theologian in one of the Pontifical institutes (and a former co-editor of Sobornost and Eastern Churches Review).

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The Annunciation: The Feast of the Incarnation

God the Son, fully and completely God, eternally begotten in the bosom of the Father, became fully and completely man at his conception in the womb of the Virgin Mary. His human life began at fertilization, which in his case was miraculous, because his Virgin Mother was made fruitful, not by male seed, but by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is why it is the Annunciation that is the chief feast of the Incarnation. The Nativity of Our Lord is also a celebration of the Incarnation but in a different sense. The Incarnation was effected in Nazareth and then manifested in Bethlehem. March 25 commemorates the moment of the enfleshing of the Word; December 25 commemorates his birth in the flesh taken nine months earlier. Christmas Day is a feast of "theophany," a celebration, says St. Gregory Nazianzen, of "God manifested to man by birth." He comes forth from his Mother "as a bridegroom out of his chamber or as the sun from his chamber to run his race" (cf. Ps 18:6). In the stable at Bethlehem, Mary can at last hold in her arms and feed at her breast, see with her own eyes, the Child-God who for nine months has been hidden in the hermitage of her womb. In the Byzantine liturgy, the Church sings with the voice of the Theotokos:

"And she, bending over him like a handmaiden, worshipped him and said to him, as he lay in her arms: 'How wast thou sown a seed in me? And how hast thou grown within me, O my Deliverer and my God?'"

On Christmas Day, in the company of Mary and Joseph and the shepherds, the meaning of the Incarnation seizes the mind and heart of the earthly Church: God, the Creator of the universe, has become a tiny baby. As St. Bernard says, the Word was made "infant flesh, young flesh, helpless flesh." But the Church also remembers, especially during the last week of Advent, that, before being a newborn baby, God incarnate was an unborn baby in modern jargon, a fetus, an embryo, a zygote. The first stage of human life that God made his own and thereby divinized was embryonic. The adventure of being human began for the eternal Son at the moment of his conception.

This dogmatic truth is proclaimed in the liturgies of both East and West on March 25. In the Roman Missal of Pope Paul VI, the celebration is a feast of the first rank (a "solemnity") and is described as "the Annunciation of the Lord." During the Creed, at the "Et incarnatus est," the faithful are invited to kneel as a reminder of what the day commemorates. In the Byzantine rite, at Great Compline for "The Annunciation of the Most Holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary,"the Church sings these words:

"Let the heavens be glad and the earth rejoice: for the Son who is coeternal with the Father, having his throne and like him without beginning, in his compassion and merciful love for mankind has submitted himself to emptying (cf. Phil 2:7), according to the good pleasure and the counsel of the Father; and he has gone to dwell in a Virgin's womb that was sanctified beforehand by the Spirit. O marvel! God is come among men; he who cannot be contained is contained in a womb; the Timeless enters time; and strange wonder! His conception is without seed, his emptying is past telling; so great is this mystery! For God empties himself, takes flesh, and is fashioned as a creature, when the angel tells the pure Virgin of her conception: 'Hail, thou who art full of grace; the Lord who has great mercy is with thee.'"
As to the Scholastics:
One problem considered by them was that of the infusion of the soul.
Quote
The Schoolmen (following Aristotle) held the view that the rational soul is not infused at the first moment of conception but at a later time, that is, when the embryo has attained a sufficiently advanced state of bodily development.

St. Thomas stood by this theory, not just because it came to him from Aristotle, but because it corresponded to what was observable in nature, and he was convinced that a sound philosophy must be empirically based.
In other words given the clear observation that "ontology recapitulates phylogeny", at what point in developmental biology is the soul infused"? Or presuming that the soul of man enters man and only man, the question is when is the developing embryo is genuinely human. Our present scientific knowledge of these matters is much more advanced than that of the scholastics; we can certainly say that a unique human being exists at the most earliest stage of development -bypassing the problem they had considered. This point was by no means obvious to Aquinas.

This line of thought had some implications on the way Aquinas thought about the Immaculate Conception. (Here an intriguing article on the related ideas of Henry of Ghent http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/hph/40.1brower-toland.html) But what did it have to do with the Incarnation of Christ? Not much, according to Saward. "St. Thomas taught that Christ's body did not develop in the normal manner. Having been created directly by the Holy Spirit from the flesh and blood of the Virgin, without any involvement of male seed, it was fully formed, perfectly organized, from the first moment of conception, and from that first moment was animated by a rational soul. St. Bonaventure held the same opinion: from his conception, Christ's body had "perfection of organization."

According to Saward, the Scholastics - with some great intellectual gymnastics - kept the emphasis on the Annunciation as the the moment of Incarnation. Whatever is influencing St. Vlad's, Patriarch Alexy II, etc., does not seem to be Scholasticism. Maybe, it's just what was said by St. Gregory Nazianzen - the excitement that the incarnation of God is revealed before the eyes of all at His birth.

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But scholasticism got us to the very idea of the infusion of the soul. The Incarnation/Annunciation preserves us from this error! There is nothing in the scripture between the Annunciation and the Nativity to lead us to any other conclusion. Scripturally, the untimely births (miscarriages) are all referred to as people!

You don't have a soul, you are a soul! Body (sarkos) + spirit/breath (pnevma) = soul/life (psixhi). If you take this equation to the scriptures, you will find that it is always true. It is easiest to see in Ezekiel (valley of the bones), Proverbs and Psalms.

Older English preserved us from this incorrect tripartite division of the human being. They used to say "the ship capsized and fourty-two souls perished." This meant that the souls died (gone to sheol/the grave), it didn't mean that they had gone to hell/gehenna.

In James, at the end, he writes of converting a sinner as saving "a soul from death." The soul dies, but is promised life again at the resurrection.

Scholasticism took us away from these simple scriptural truths.

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Dear AJ Rubis:

Technically I suppose that I should have said "spiritiual soul" or just "spirit". In non-technical English usage, soul, spirit, and psyche are used interchangeably; the "souls perished" usage is a synecdoche. I am interested to hear your criticism of a body + spirit/soul/psyche = integral human person equation.

I thought that the Traducianism/Generationism/Creationism discussion began long before the Scholastics. Is it their favoring of the latter idea that you term "error", or is it their failure to reach the idea of "immediate animation"?

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Dear djs,

I would not distinguish between an integral human person and a soul/life. Scripturally, we can't. Once we separate body and breath/spirit, we are no more alive, our soul is dead, and we are certainly disintegrated. Does that mean that God has forgotten us?

Considering the 14,000 innocents slain in Bethlehem "...the sound of Raechel weeping for her children....for they were not." It just sounds horrible, and it is horrible. Death and non-existence are not supposed to be something to which we look forward.

I'm saying that we have made the subject more complicated than God wants it to be for us. He gave us a simple equation that forces us to hope in the resurrection, otherwise the "were not" becomes "will not be" and "will not be forever." With the resurrection, Raechel's children "will be" alive again.

Regarding scholastic error, I'm not knowledgeable on the three terms "traducianism, generationism, and creationism." Any attempt to out-think the equation (above) or to deny full human identity from the moment of conception would send one toward error. That's why I enjoy using the "untimely births" as a foil (and not only because I'm active in the pro-life movement).

If anything, the Incarnation/Annunciation itself should show us that the abovestated equation is all that we need. Body (of the Theotokos) + (Holy) Spirit = soul/life (Jesus Christ of Nazareth)

With love in Christ's Nativity.

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Correction to post immediately above:
Body (from the Theotokos).....

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