www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Newbie Looking Into Eastern Catholicism

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here. My name is Jennifer Benjamin. I am 21-years-old, and I'm from Rhode Island. I was raised Roman Catholic my entire life (i.e., since my baptism at two months of age). To be honest with you, I wasn't even aware that the Eastern Catholic Churches existed until about two years ago when I had a reconversion of sorts. I first learnt of Eastern Catholicism on the EWTN Eastern Catholic forum lead by Anthony Dragani, and I was both intrigued and impressed. I've had a rudimentary knowledge of Eastern Christianity, as I've been reading about the Russian Imperial family -- the Romanovs -- since I was 14-years-old. I remember being interested in icons and the Eastern way of doing things. (I am partly Polish, and I attend a Polish Roman Catholic parish. At my parish, we have a gorgeous jeweled icon of Our Lady of Czenstochowa.) Anyhow, I've been looking into Eastern Catholicism for some time now, and I've been reading up on it here and there.

I just want to make it clear that I'm not running away from anything in the Latin Rite. I know that many Traditionalist Catholics (I'm not a Traditionalist) flee the Latin Church for the Eastern Churches, but I can assure you that I'm not one of them. Anthony Dragani always says that one must not run from the Latin Church into the Eastern Church, but that one must fully embrace Eastern Catholicism on their own accord and because they feel drawn to it. If I ever become Eastern Catholic, it will only be because I feel especially called towards it. At this point, I still think like a Latin in that I'm very logical and like to have definite answers. I think that this would need to be ironed out before I would ever change rites. The Eastern Catholic Churches deserve better than a latinized Easterner, so I am going to refrain from officially becoming Eastern Catholic until I'm fully Eastern in my outlook -- if that ever happens. Do any of you have advice on how this can be approached?

To be perfectly honest with you, I am sometimes discouraged by what seems like a disgruntled attitude on behalf of Eastern Catholics. In a sense, I can understand (as I agree that the latinization of the Eastern Catholic Churches was a bad thing), but it does hurt me when others speak (or write) against the Catholic Church in general. I've seen some Eastern Catholics who seemingly tend to sit the fence between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Of course, I'm not referring to tradition or theological outlook; what I'm talking about is what seems like a suspicion and sometimes even a rejection of certain Catholic teachings, especially regarding the papacy (and other things that the Orthodox disagree with Catholics over). Is this prevalent in Eastern Catholicism? I really hope not. I am Catholic because I believe what Catholicism teaches 100%.

There is a Melkite Catholic parish in my home state not too far from where I live. I plan on attending Divine Litury there sometime soon. I'm really, really looking forward to it. Is there anything I should keep in mind for when I attend?

Is there anything in particular (or in general) that you'd like to fill me in on regarding Eastern Catholicism? I am very eager to learn!

God bless,

Jennifer

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello Jennifer, welcome to the Forum!!

You sound like a very sincere and intelligent person. If you have an interest in the Eastern churches you should make plans to visit one and do a little reading.

Since you have indicated that there is a Melkite parish near your home I think you should pop in. Call the rectory first, and speak to the priest, it will only take a few minutes and I am sure he would be delighted to converse with you. Ask if there is a bookstore and if so, buy The Face of God by Archbishop Joseph Raya, who is also a Melkite. You should also read The Orthodox Way by bishop Kallistos Ware, you might find it there.

After attending Divine Liturgy a few times you will be in a much better position to determine whether the Eastern churches make sense to you. My suggestion would be that if you have any difficulty following the pew book just close it, the Liturgy has a natural flow to it that you will pick up after a few visits (this is much easier to say assuming the liturgy is in a language you understand ). Listen closely to the prayers, the Liturgy will express the faith in it's prayer, and if it makes sense to you then you will do fine.

If you take communion, don't stick out that little pink pillow. Open your mouth wide, tilt your head back and allow the Lamb of God to be gently dropped in.

Don't be disturbed by the perceived disgruntledness of people like me. Sometimes the point intended is not what will be most obvious to you. It is said that love hurts, and sometimes it is those who love the church most deeply who will cry out in great anguish.

Also make no mistake, the theology expressed by the Orthodox is Catholic theology, although it may be expressed in terms that sound new to you.

Some individuals attempt to get Eastern Catholics to acknowledge some theological concept that is expressed in purely Western terms, and doesn't correlate well with their understanding. Of course there will be resistance to that, it has the effect of "putting words in the mouth" of someone. People get upset when they are told what to think and say by outsiders. Eastern Catholic beliefs are complete in themselves.

At Vatican Council II Patriarch Maximos IV Sa�gh of blessed memory said this...
In 1996 Kyr Elias, Archbishop-Emeritus of Baalback wrote this as part of a larger profession of faith:
In response Metropolitan George, Greek Orthodox Metropolitan of Byblos and Batroun wrote:
There is a lot at stake here, we are so close and yet so far. Pray for Christian unity. Enjoy your excursion in the East.

Michael

Dear Jennifer,
You have certainly come to the right place.
I too am a Roman Catholic with a deep respect and love for the Eastern Churches. I am in awe of the knowledge of the majority of the people who post here. I came here to learn more about the Eastern Churches and find that I learn a lot about the Roman Church,too. For a long time, I simply just read the posts with no intention of posting myself. I didn't want to stick my nose into other people's business. Especially when they know so much more than I. The first post I did make, I totally misunderstood the point of view of the writer I attempted to rebut. I was cordially corrected and welcomed to the forum! I didn't think of it when I chose my member name, but some don't like the use of the word "Rite", preferring the word "Church", instead, for reasons I now understand. But no one has tossed me out on my ear. Now, every once in awhile I just throw my 2 cents in, just to let everyone know I'm around and listening.

Regarding your thoughts about a lot of the posters being "disgruntled",I kind of thought the same thing myself in the beginning, but came to realize it is not that at all. What you have here are people who are very much in love with their faith and their church and are ready and willing to defend it. Sometimes it can get a little hot but charity usually prevails in the end.

I thank God I found this website and later this forum and am humbled to be here.

Hi Jennifer,

Welcome to the Byzantine Forum. I am not well informed enough yet to add much to what the others have posted so far, but just wanted you to know that I really like what you said about
embracing Eastern Catholicism because of being "drawn to it." And may I, as a Roman Catholic of over 50 years, encourage you to prayerfully pay attention to the "lure" you feel. Like you I once knew very little of Byzantine Catholicism. But several years ago when I was a graduate student working on a M.A. in Religious Studies my friend who was taking a course in Byzantine Spirituality suggested we visit a Byzantine Catholic Church. That began my interest and before long I also took the same class she did in Byzantine Spirituality. Then later my husband and I attended the Byzantine Catholic Church(Ruthenian rite) for a year. For the most part it was a blessed experience. The Divine Liturgy was a "taste of heaven" for us. Many of the people were friendly and we began to get involved in activities and make friends. I volunteered to organize the church prayer chain and felt really close to the heartbeat of the parish. However, there were regular and consistent anti-Roman Catholic grumblings from several members chief of which was the pastor of the church. And there was a lack of ecunemism regarding Christians of other faiths. This bothered us and in time we decided it was not for us to stay. Now we have moved to another part of the State where we are far from a Byzantine Church. But, that special 'lure' in my heart just never went away, and now I know that I should not have given up so easily because of the unloving attitudes of some church members. So, we drive the distance (100 miles round trip) about once a month to the closest Byzantine Church and attend a Roman Catholic Church in our area the rest of the month. And we did get there for Pascha(Easter)last month. I am finding that several Roman Catholics who attend this Byzantine Church are there, not because they are disgruntled with the Roman Catholic rite, but because they feel, like I do, "drawn" to the Byzantine Liturgy which has a beauty all its own.

Hey,

I am just sneakin' in here for a minute will come back...but wanted to respond here..

If you take communion, don't stick out that little pink pillow. Open your mouth wide, tilt your head back and allow the Lamb of God to be gently dropped in.

The Melkites use a slightly larger peice of Eucharist, the priest will take the Body in his fingers and dip in the Blood and give it to you like that. And you will not say AMEN. Also, as I am sure you have noticed on here that we use the levened bread.

Pani Rose

Jennifer,

Welcome to the Forum. Hopefully, you'll enjoy it here, we'll have the opportunity to learn from you, as you do from us, and our occasional disgruntlement won't be too dismaying to you. As you'll see in reading through posts, we're a diverse group, united by a love of or, at least, a fascination with Eastern Christianity.

You'll find that those who post here span the spectrum of Eastern Christianity. Our members include both Catholics and Orthodox of the most commonly known Tradition - that of Byzantium (e.g., Albanians, Greeks, Melkites, Ruthenians, Ukrainians), as well as those of the lesser-known Catholic and Orthodox Churches of the so-called Oriental traditions (e.g., the Armenians, Chaldeans/Assyrians, Maronites, Syriac). We also have a sizeable Latin contingent, both those with an inclination to transfer to an Eastern Church and those who never will, but are enamored of the East; and, a small Protestant membership, primarily but not entirely from High Church backgrounds, who are also attracted by the East.

We learn from one another; we agree; we disagree. But, the basic and abiding rule here is intended to be one of charity and of respect for the beliefs of our brothers and sisters. I suspect that I am viewed by some here as a bit of a pollyanna, because I continually expound on the uniqueness of this site; I am firmly convinced that there is no other Eastern-focused forum on the web which is as open to and accepting of diversity as we are. Other such sites tend to be replete with Catholic or Orthodox bashing, depending on who is in the majority (although one of which I know is an equal opportunity bashing venue).

You'll see canonical transfers between Catholic Churches here; you'll see conversions here - between Eastern Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy - in both directions (and, occasionally, to the Latin Church - that would be our Garrett/Teen of the Incarnate Logos). And, hopefully, you'll see the same respect accorded the member, before - during - and after.

I cannot encourage you enough to visit the Melkite parish near you, it would either be St. Basil the Great (Lincoln) or St. Elias Mission (Woonsocket). The pastor of both is Right Rev. Archimandrite and Patriarchal Exarch Joseph Haggar. I've known Father Joe for a very long time. At heart, he is much younger than his years, has a wonderful sense of humor, is a very gentle soul, and unquestionably one of the holiest and most approachable priests, I've ever encountered. You could not ask for a better introduction or welcome to Eastern Catholicity than you'll receive from him. St. Basil's is a relatively new church and a beautiful example of Byzantine style (I haven't been to St. Elias in so many years that I can't remember it well enough to comment.) Archdeacon George Yany, who assists Father Joe in serving the parish, is also a great person. From my experience, you'll find the parish community (principally Aleppine Syrians) to be very warm and welcoming to visitors. (Ron Montecalvo, a member here is a parishioner of St. Basil's.)

Michael offered wonderful suggestions for books, as he always does. Anything by Archbishop Raya or Bishop Ware is great reading and very helpful in learning about the Christian East. You might also want to read a few on-line sites.

Overview and brief history of each of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches of the East:

Catholic Near East Welfare Association [cnewa.org]

Some additional sites that will give you background and understandings:

Vision of Our Church in the Third Christian Millenium - Melkite Auxiliary Bishop Nicholas Samra [melkite.org]

Recovering Our Heritage [melkite.org]

The Courage To Be Ourselves - Archb... first Eparch for the Melkites in the US [melkite.org]

Role & Position of the Eastern Catholic Churches within the Catholic Church [melkite.org]

The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom [esoptron.umd.edu]

Byzantine Church architecture [crosslink.net]

Byzantine liturgical vestments [crosslink.net]

The Eastern Churches and Patriarchates by Melkite Auxiliary Bishop Nicholas Samra [st-ann-melkite.org]

"Eastern Presuppositions".... Mitred Archimandrite Robert Taft, S.J. [praiseofglory.com]

Extracts from \'History of the Mel...amp; Patriarchal Exarch Joseph Nasrallah [opuslibani.org.lb]

Hope these help.

Many years,

Neil

Jennifer ,

Wow what a lot of things have been passed on to you

Just wanted to say " Hi and welcome"

I'm one of these Latins too and I'm hooked on the East as well.

I echo the suggestions to go to DIvine Liturgy - after my first experience I knew that this was where I was meant to be - even though I understood not one word

I still want to be there - maybe one day

Anyway - enjoy yourself here - we are all good friends and like friends we have our wee 'hissy fits" and squabbles and then the fur can fly a wee bit - and then we all kiss and make up .

Anhelyna

Hi Coalesco,

Thanks very much for your response.

I called the Melkite parish last week, and I left a message. Someone from the parish called me back with a phone number, so I plan on calling soon to find out more information.

I will keep that in mind, for sure. Even if there isn't a bookstore at the parish, I'll see if I can get those two books at my local library. Anthony Dragani recommends Bishop Kallistos Ware's books on his forum, so they're definitely on my reading list. I have so many Catholic books I need to read. :p

I've read the Divine Liturgy online, and it seems similar to the form of the Mass. It does seem a bit longer, though, and it uses litanies much more. Of course, reading it is totally different than actually experiencing it firsthand.

Yes and no, it seems to me. Eastern Catholics do seem to have the exact same way of looking at things as the Eastern Orthodox do. But I don't know if I'd go so far to say that the two are the same. The Orthodox reject the notion of papal jurisdiction and infallibility, to name one example (other examples would be the rejection of the Western notion of Original Sin, varying views on what happens after death, including the final theosis, which some Orthodox Christians deny, rejection of the Immaculate Conception and doctrinal development* in general, etc.). As Catholics, it would seem that Eastern Catholics would accept this, although they'd perhaps understand it in a way different from Western Catholics.

I can understand that, as I think it'd be wrong to impose the distinctly Western Catholic view of Purgatory, for example, on Eastern Catholics, as only two things are necessary to this dogma.

I pray with the rest of you for the end of this horrible Schism.

God bless,

Jennifer

*I just want to make a quick note on doctrinal development. It's my understanding that Eastern Christians in communion with Rome accept this notion; however, they tend to rather leave things undefined, as it is more in nature with their more mystical view of things. Is this correct?

Hi Bill,

You know, I often get the two confused as well. I think I've read that there are four Rites within the Catholic Church, but that there are 22 Churches that make up the Catholic Church as a whole. So, when referring to, for instance, Melkite Catholicism, one could say that Melkite Catholics belong to the Melkite Catholic Church, which uses the Byzantine Rite. Is this correct?

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Bill.

God bless,

Jennifer

Hi Porter,

I enjoyed reading your experiences as well. It is too bad that your time at the Ruthenian Catholic parish had to be spoiled by the negative attitude of those in the parish. I have to say, though, that you can find anti-ecumenical attitudes throughout the entire spectrum of Christianity.

God bless,

Jennifer

Hi Pani Rose,

Thanks for your response.

I've read that Eastern Christians use leavened bread to signify the Resurrection, whereas Latin Catholics use unleavened bread to signify the more penitential way they approach the Sacrifice, right? (I've read that Latin Catholics also use unleavened bread as a similarity to the Jewish passover bread. Is this correct as well?)

In the Eastern Catholic Churches, can the Eucharist be chewed, or must it be swallowed whole? My Eastern Orthodox friend says that she swallows the Eucharist whole. Also, must one fast after midnight prior to receiving the Eucharist in Eastern Catholic Churches, or is the fast one hour prior to receiving the Eucharist, as it is in the Latin Church? (In my Orthodox friend's parish, they fast from midnight onward prior to receiving Holy Communion.)

God bless,

Jennifer

Hi Neil (Irish Melkite),

How awesome to hear from an Eastern Catholic who lives in the area!

Wow, how great! I will have to introduce myself to Ron Montecalvo sometime! I will probably go to St. Elias Mission parish first, as my dad is going to drop me off there on his way to tennis on Sunday mornings. I would like to go to St. Basil's as well. There is a Ukrainian Catholic Church in Woonsocket (I think that's where it is) that'd I'd like to visit also. The only trouble is that the Divine Liturgy is in Ukrainian. For my first Divine Liturgy, at least, I'd like to go to one in English so that I can understand what's going on.

Thanks so much for the links. I've paged through a few of them and plan on reading the rest soon.

God bless,

Jennifer

Hi everyone,

I have a few questions that perhaps you all can help answer for me.

The questions come from things I've read on this page [melkite.org] .

1.) Unmarried priesthood is listed under latinizations. Of course, I realize that a forced celibate priesthood would be a latinization, and I'd certainly be against that. But what about priests who choose to remain celibate in the Eastern Catholic Churches because they feel that they can serve God and the Church better that way? Would this be considered a latinization, or would this be permitted and condoned as the ideal?

2.) Suppression of liturgical hours is listed as a latinization. What does that mean?

3.) Presanctified in favor of the Divine Liturgy is also listed as a latinization. I know that Presanctified Liturgy is a service where the Eucharist is consecrated beforehand. When are Presanctified Liturgies (or whatever they're called) supposed to take place? And when is the Divine Liturgy supposed to take place?

4.) The website lists, "14. Emphasizing the words of Institution and silencing the Epiklesis prayers" as a latinization. What does this mean? What is the Epiklesis?

5.) " 15. Truncation of prayers, esp. psalms in liturgies" is listed as a latinization. What does "trunction of prayers" mean?

6.) The site says that combining marriage and funeral ceremonies with the Divine Liturgy is a latinization. Is the marriage ceremony, therefore, celebrated outside of the Divine Liturgy? Is Holy Communion given at wedding ceremonies and funeral services?

7.) The site also says that not distributing the antidoron is a latinization. The antidoron is the blessed bread, right? Can you please tell me a bit about blessed bread? When is it normally distrubuted -- before, after, or during the Divine or Presanctified Liturgy? If "during," at what part of the Divine or Presanctified Liturgy is it distrubuted? Must one be in a "state of grace" to receive it?

8.) "20. Elimination of using hot water during Consecration" is listed as a latinization. What is hot water used for, and how is it used?

Well, those are all of my questions for now. I'd really appreciate it if y'all could answer them.

God bless,

Jennifer

Oh, and two more things! :p

Does anyone know who that is in the icon I have for my avatar?

I know that Eastern Christian babies are baptized, chrismated, and that they receive Holy Communion all in the same ceremony. Is Holy Communion given all throughout infanthood and childhood after that? Or does the priest hold off until the child is older after the first Holy Communion?

God bless,

Jennifer

*Infancy,* rather than infanthood. LOL.