www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology HOW IMPORTANT IS TRUTH?

Hi gang --

I put this title in caps because I do think it is an important subject.

Our Lord said a number of things regarding the truth:

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Question: Would He who is "full of truth" accept less than the truth and still call it truth as if it is 100% truth?

OH!!! Here's one!!

Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

He that DOETH truth cometh to the light. Well, then the question becomes that of whether the historic apostolic faith is the truth. Those who reject it, after it is explained to them, can we say they are "in the light?"

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

How do heretics do this? The Early Fathers weren't real lenient about the idea of "differing truths" or "lesser truth", etc. They KNEW that they were preaching what was faithfully handed down from the Depositum Fidei and had no time for other opinions.

Oh....this is a Calvinists favorite verse to "prove" that they are of the elect!!!

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

See? If you are a Calvinist, it is because you have the Spirit of truth, Who has led you to be a Calvinist. Thus, you are of the elect and sure for Heaven!!! (And everyone else is bound for hell -- if you are a real strict Calvinist!!).

Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

If the Church is the voice of the Lord in this world, then what does it say for the chaos which is Protestantism. You have hundreds of differing "truths" out there, many of which are both bizarre as well as being outright charlatans out to git yer money.

Ro 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

CONTENTIOUS??? Yeah, try discussing the faith with a Calvinistic Baptist some time. Contention in spades.

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Yeeeeeeeowch!!!! I leave this open for comment.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Like the Charismaniacs we see parading around on TV. Boy, they must have cut this verse out of their Bibles.

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

This is a PERFECT description of Calvinism. These people really, really PRIDE themselves on their "great learning" and like to strut their intellectual stuff, but they cannot grasp the truth of the faith, even when it is put in the simplest terms. My godparents have a lovely 6 year old daughter who is wiser in the faith than many Protestants I know because she doesn't fight with it.

There's more, but enough for now.

HOW IMPORTANT is truth? This ought to be a good discussion. Let's go!!

Cordially in Christ, LORD of the Eucharist,


Brother Ed

Dear Ed,

Yes, truth is important.

The problem is that it is never quite self-evident. If it was, everyone would believe the same thing, and we don't.

I think there is a sense in which truth is seen in the actions of people who believe different things.

St Augustine said that there are people outside the Church who, by their actions, seem to be inside it, and people inside the Church who seem to be outside it.

St Thomas Aquinas said that truth can be found among people of many different convictions and that "all truth, nomatter who speaks it, is from the Holy Spirit."

There once lived a Methodist lady down my street (died in 1906) who prayed for nights at a time and was known as a miracle-worker. Pilgrimages by both Catholics and Protestants were organized to her home and prayer-shed.

I'm Eastern Catholic and I invoke her intercession daily. I even believe I experienced a minor miracle through it.

For me, her life and faith exemplified what truth is all about.

Alex

Altar Boy:

If this subject interests you or any one else -
There is a wonderful new book out written by a Greek Ortodox priest named Fr Anthony M. Coniaris called "WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO TRUTH?" This book can be obtained from Light and Life Publishing company which is the largest Orthodox publishing company in North America and also run by Fr Anthony.
The book is an easy read and just full of wonder ful stories. It is the type of book you will pick up and read or refer to often. I guarantee it. Light and Life has web site which you can access to order the book. Apparently the book has been so popular that they have sold out twice already.


I highly recommend it. It has become one of my most prized possessions.

OrthoMan

How important is Truth? How important is it not to be a heretic? What a great question.

The Orthodox, that is the TRUE Orthodox, do not view matters legalistically, but ontologically. Heresy is darkness. Darkness cannot exist together with the light of God's grace. The heretic is a heretic because he has driven God far from himself; it means that he has willingly shut himself up inside a dark tower of ignorance where no ray of the divine light can penetrate. More than any other sin, heresy estranges men from God. Through heresy, a man severs himself from God whether a council excommunicates him or not. Heretics are ontologically, not legalistically, cut off from the Church. They are separated because they are in heresy, and not because the Church has decided to cut them off. The heretic, that is, he who preaches heresy and anyone who knowingly or unknowingly follows one who preaches heresy, is, in either case, in opposition to the Church. He who is in opposition to the Church cannot have the Blood of Christ, which cleanses from all sins. The presupposition for this cleansing to take place is that one should abide in the truth.

God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all, writes the beloved Disciple of the Lord. If we say we have communion with Him and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not act in truth. But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have communion one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, His Son, cleanseth us from all sin. (I John 1:5,7)

"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son" (II John 1:9).

The presupposition for people to have the grace of God is for them to have the truth, because, as Saint Symeon the New Theologian says: "Truth is nothing else than the grace of Christ." The separation of the heretic from the Church, therefore, has no relation with the decisions of a council of the hierarchy. The Orthodox Council is the surgeon which amputates the rotten limbs but they were rotten well before.

The "old-calendarists" may not know anything, but one thing they do know: they are in agreement with the New Martyrs, the Confessors, the Fathers, the Anchorites, the ancient Martyrs, the Apostles. It does not matter to them if they are few, because the real Christians were always few in number. They do not care if they are weak, because the Apostles were also weak. It does not bother them that they are unlettered, because Christ also was unlettered. They are anxious about one thing alone: how they may remain faithful to Orthodoxy, how they may remain in the Church, how they may run into the Ark. To Robert and all the syncretists who calm eachother with references to "World Orthodoxy", the Orthodox Christians answer with the words of Saint Theodore the Studite, "One who is well-pleasing to God is to be preferred over myriads who are invested with presumption. It is your prerogative to prefer the drowned multitude to Noah who was saved; but as for me, allow me to run to the Ark along with the few."

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: FrDeaconEd ]

Dear Moderator,

God bless you!

Alex

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

I have edited out the portion of the second sentence that is offensive, and have left the remainder of the post.

OOD -- please to not assert that which only God can know. You may have an opinion but it is, at best, an opinion. It is not fact.

Edward, deacon, sinner and moderator.

Dear Father Deacon,

Forgive me, I thought it was OOD who did the editing!

I am truly sorry to have been wrong!

Alex

OOD:

You say that darkness and light cannot exist together. Yet, I submit that they must! God's grace exists in our world of darkness. Each of us brings some darkness to everything we do. If not, then there would be no need for theosis.

It is, in fact, the very contrast between darkness and light that makes the light so apparent. The light drives out the darkness, but that means that both are present for the one to replace the other.

In a spiritual sense, it is the perception of the "fullness of Truth" that we are talking about. We cannot do that for we are imperfect beings -- we are not infinite and, therefore, cannot perceive God in His fullness. Yet, we are called to turn away from sin and toward God.

The TRUE Orthodox recognize that God works where He will. The TRUE Orthodox claim they know where grace is, but not where it is not. Thus, the TRUE Orthodox recognize that others may have some element of Truth and, thereby, may have some grace. Note that they do not claim grace is present, but they do not deny it.

Edward, deacon and sinner

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: FrDeaconEd ]

You might say I could not know if you believed like your last post, that people are confused in what the truth is.

I believe the Truth can be found and that everyone is responsible for finding it. In many cases, people choose not to know and I have seen cases of that on this board.

Alex,

Not to worry, I once thought I was wrong -- but I was mistaken.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Dear OOD,

Would you please comment on the Orthodox teaching concerning "prelest?"

What is it, how can one know that one is in it and how does one fight it?

Alex

FrDeaconEd,

I appreciate the sensitivity and of course meant no insult to anyone.

And I appreciate not having the entire post erased, it took some time.

What it means when I say that Darkness cannot cooexist with God's Grace is that God's Grace drives away darkness. But where an indivdual persists in Darkness, such as heresy, you will not find God's Grace.

I did not exactly say that Light cannot coexist with Darkness

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Dear OOD,

Could you explain the difference between "heresy" and "schism?"

Can one imply the other?

Also, how does one know when one is in heresy?

Alex

Alex,

Prelest is spiritual delusion.

We are all deceived in some sense but it is not as though God did not give us the nature to discover Him. All have that ability.

Alex,

I wish I had more time today to answer your latest questions better.

Heresy is theological corruption and an attack on the Truth of the Church whereas schism is a break in visible and often spiritual communion.

All heretics are schismatics but schismatics are not nessesarily heretics.

Sometimes a group who breaks communion are not themselves Schismatics. Look at the Arsenites under the reign of Michael (VIII) Paliologos.

http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/10/en/p/pb2/pb2c3.html

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]