www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology HOW IMPORTANT IS TRUTH?

Alex,

I agree (and you understood what I was saying correctly). I hate it when people introduce a prayer by saying: "Let us place ourselves in the presence of the Lord." Heck, God was there first -- we should recall that we are already in His presence!

OOD,

You write that we should search Tradition -- and I agree with you. But what of those who do not know of the existence of Tradition? How can they search that which, as far as they know, does not exist?

You are correct that we condemn ourselves -- but we already know of Christ and his teachings, and yet we are in different Churches, each believing ourselves to be correct. Each following a Tradition that goes back to the time of Christ. How can I go against what seems to me to be Truth? How can you?

We return to the basic question: How can we know what we don't know? How can God (instead of condemn) expect us to follow a Tradition that is never presented to us? This, of course, is the primary contention of the more, um, fundamentalist Orthodox (ROCOR comes to mind here).

BTW, OOD, my comment regard "your opinion" was the now deleted comment that you made asserting tht people here "did not care" about Truth. That was your opinion, and one I believe that is completely in error.

Edward, deacon and sinner

[ 05-09-2002: Message edited by: FrDeaconEd ]

Dear Alex,

The episode with Saint Paul at the Areopagus comes to mind...in preaching to them who had an altar "to an unknown God", Saint Paul proclaims "What therefore you unknowingly worship, I proclaim to you."

Enjoyed everyones comments. This is an interesting thread.

Alex - I like what you put up, that Thomas Merton had to say.

I of course agree with Aklie that a line must be drawn somewhere. For me that line of Protestantism comes when one enters one of our current Churches (with valid baptisim) that is outside of the Universal Church (Catholic & Orthodox). The line of whether one can properly call themselves Christian comes with the acceptance of the Triune God, Christ as the second Person of that Trinity.

***

FrDeaconEd,

Your question above goes to the heart of this thread - NOT if one can be "saved" if one is outside of the Universal Church - but [How Important Is Truth?].

The first part of your question above is answered not in the Bible per se nor in the saints within or outside of the Church - but in the Apostles. In the Bishops of the Universal Church. Since people are bringing up Scripture (which I hate to play with in arguments because I personaly feel one needs to have spent years under a competent authority studying Scrpture - in it's whole - to really speak on Scripture in a manner that is in keeping with the integrity and Spirit of Christian Scripture) and throwing out *what should seem to be the obvious* let me just point out another *obvious* that being that unlike the fish Our Lord did not multiplie Scripture for us and send it out to man as the foundation of His Church. Without saying it directly (like many things in Scripture ) Scripture tells us quite loudly, I say, that Our Lord sent mankind His Apostles as to the world as the foundation of His Church.

People could come to know what they didn't know by listening to Peter and the other Apostles. Men that weren't perfect mind you, but by the grace of God were to *teach* Christ and Church to all. As Christ tells us: He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me.

Of course we could say that the Jewish religion, the Buddhist religion, and the Hindue religion, taught to hate God and neighbor, and that is why Christ came to establish these two sole principles. But I suspect with Him giving us His blood to drink His body to eat and the sacrament of reconciliation He had more then just those to intents for mankind in his Christian religion.

As for the second part of your question, it illustrates perfectly the harm I suggest the Reformation has done to Christianity.

Take the Western world, at one time everyone was Catholic in the Western world, to be Christian meant to *know* the Bishops of the Church, It meant to *know* Tradition.

What has it meant regarding Christian teaching and love on a global level, post rejection and ignorance of Universal Church Tradition and Bishops? It has meant the establishment of a world under the threat of nuclear destruction - Something which I say can be traced in historical consquences to the Reformation. A fact of life that will be left out of the history books, so that all self serving national interest may be served before that of submission to Universal Bishop teaching and mankind *familial* bond through out the world via the Universal Church.

So to the True Drink and True Food has been down played by ways of the Reformation for fast food restuarants, hardcore narcotics, alcoholic binges in the gambling meecas, and *married* women dancing nude in strip clubes through out the world. "Sola Scriptora" - "By Faith Alone".

FrDeaconEd,

To clarify...

By seekign for the answers in Tradition, I mean we, who know how to, and for the purpose of finding out what the Church says about how important truth is. I should have been more clear, sorry.

Dear Catholicos,

That's very good!

I think you should start thinking about playing a greater role of service and ministry in the Church!

Alex

Dear forum members ---

This has been a great thread for me to read and understand.

I think Lance really did hit the nail on the head with his reminder that the constant preaching of Christ in the gospels, along with the statements of St. Paul and St. John in the epistles, has to do with how well we loved.

Let me hasten to say this:

I came out of a tradition which places an extremely high premium on doctrinal correctness. UNDERSTANDING is everything to these folks, and some of them I knew would even laughingly joke about it with me ("Ahhhh.....you know, Calvinists, we tend to be the brainy Christians). That sort of stuff. So I tend to still be geared to think in lines of somehow finding the absolute truth regarding all that a Christian should know and practice.

Somehow, the emphasis in the Protestant Rebellion (sorry, that is what I consider it) became the exercise of the intellect over the living of love to one's neighbor (and even, as Christ said, one's enemies). One only need witness the persecutions and martyrdoms of the 2-300 years after the Reformation to realize this. Somewhere along the line, in the rush to "straighten out the Church" the LOVE OF GOD got pretty badly forgotten.

There is one other thing to toss in here also. It is of a highly personal nature, yet I know this afflicts a lot of people. There are a lot of folks who grow up feeling......well, second class as human beings. Inferiority plagues these folk and they will turn to anything to make themselves feel better about who they are. Many indulge themselves in physical vices of an addictive nature. But some become workaholics, some become "clean freaks," and some become perfectionists.

It is this last class of people who I think are particularly cursed to NEED to have all their doctrinal "i's" dotted and "t's" crosed. Coming to a rite and learning all that the rite teaches, getting the doctrines, the history of the rite, even some of the pet phrases in Greek or Hebrew down pat, gives such people a tremendous ego boost. It is the constant reinforcement to a very shallow sense of self-worth which they need.

I have been, for all my life, one of these people.

And like them, when I was a Fundamentalist and a Calvinist, I was without a doubt, one of the MOST UNPLEASANT people you would ever want to have come to your door and "witness" to you. Oh, I KNEW what the truth was. The only problem was that it didn't change my life into the beautiful likeness of Christ's love coming from within. All it made me (and other thousands out there like me) was an arrogant know-it-all jerk who just wanted to get in yer face and win an arguement. Just ask any of my longsuffering family members!!

This is the one thing which my newfound understanding of the historic Christian faith is showing me -- that it is indeed LOVE which will be the winsome witness to Christ's reality in my life. This is not to say that I should not stand for truth, but there is a gentle and kind, yet firm way to do so, a way which I believe is far more compatible with the love of God in Christ than telling everyone they are going to hell (a favorite pastime of Fundamentalists and Calvinists).

Thank you for letting me get that off my chest.

LORD JESUS CHRIST, SON OF GOD, HAVE MERCY ON ME A SINNER!!!


Brother Ed

PS -- Please do not think that I have been describing anyone but myself. Only you know how loving you are with your witness to the truth to others. So far, on this thread, which has had the possibility of great dissention and anger, I have seen great respect and charity in disagreement. May God hasten the day that the schism is ended and the Church is one again.

PPS Unfortunately for a lot of those people who are stuck in this trap, they are PETRIFIED of the apostolic Faith. God is not so much a Father to them (although they give lip service to the idea) as a JUDGE. And for them, judgement comes in black and white, which means that they had better be 100% right in what they believe or they are going to hell, post haste!! This is why when you encounter them on Internet forums and try to show them the writings of the Early Fathers, the history of the Church, or proper exegesis of the Scriptures, it is like talking to a brick. They spit out canned defenses. And they do this because deep inside, they are filled with FEAR that to convert to the ancient faith would make God angry with them and they would lose their souls!!

I know -- Been there, done that!!! And it is darn uncomfortable, let me tell you.

The greatest thing that ever spoke to my heart was hearing this phrase chanted at Vespers in the Orthodox church I went to before becoming Byzantine:

"...oh Lord, who loves mankind"

Somehow, that simple phrase touched my heart and filled me with an awe and wonder at the idea of a God Who, unlike the capricious god of Calvinism who for no reason consigns people to hell at random, loves mankind -- ALL MANKIND -- with a love beyond comprehension. It still thrills my heart to sing that phrase in our Liturgy!!

Our God is a good and loving Father.

[ 05-09-2002: Message edited by: Altar Boy ]