www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Question for Ruthenians, Melkites, and those who left for Orthodoxy

I have been reading various discussions about the apparent challenges faced by Byzantine Churches in Communion with Rome. From what I understand, they are trying to regain their identity in relation to their Eastern patrimony, spirituality and theology. Apparently, the Light for Life catechism series has tried to focus on what is important for the East, while at the same time not offending Rome by denying certain doctrines, thus leaving just enough room for everyone to be comfortable. I see that some Byzantines simply choose not to deal with certain issues because it does not directly affect them or their spirituality, while others attempt to try and explain how East and West are theologically saying the same things with different terms, while yet, others leave the Byzantine Catholic Church to become Orthodox.

I have qustions which are directed specifically to Ruthenians and Melkites, and those who left either of these Churches to become Orthodox.

1. For those who are still Byzantine Catholic or Melkite, I would like to know if there is anything you can point to in your Liturgies or Churches that you consider to be influenced by Latin theology. For example, is there anything in the Divine Liturgy or homily which has anything to do with infallibility of the Pope, defining Mary's conception as being without original sin, or which Councils are truly ecumenical, etc.? When, if ever, are you called upon to try and reconcile Eastern and Western spirituality or theology in your Church worship experiences? Practically speaking, does Latin theology really make any intrusions into your Churches at the local level at all?

2. For those who left a Byzatine Church to become Orthodox, I would like to know if you experieced any theological conflicts caused by something in the Divine Liturgy and/or Church you attended. Were there any Roman/Western/Papal dogmas that you felt were forced on you, and made you feel uncomfortable? If there was nothing you could pinpoint in your regular worship experiences that was theologcally unacceptable, was it an inner conflict about remaining in Communion with Rome? Did you leave because inwardly you felt Rome expected you to accept things you did not believe, even though these issues did not present themselves openly in the Church setting?

Dear Double Eagle,

I am one of those who are still Byzantine Catholic and really do appreciate your questions on this topic.

The Latinizations I've experienced at the local parish level and still do aren't things that are somehow "forced" on us by Latins.

They are maintained by a number of our own clergy who have support for them from different sectors of our laity.

Whether or not a given priest is "Latinist" depends on where he was trained.

Those formerly trained in Rome and in the seminary of Bl. Bishop Khomyshyn in western Ukraine are definitely of the Latinist school.

Right now, however, those trained in the Seminary at Rome set up by Patriarch Josef are well-nourished in the well-springs of Eastern theology and spirituality.

Latinist practices range from Stations of the Cross, no iconostasis (and never one), really shortened services, strong emphasis on Purgatory and indulgences, emphasis on the Filioque, practical ignoring of any way to commemorate the Epiclesis, celebration of Latin feasts using modified Latin forms ("moleben" to the Sacred Heart and the Virgin Mary which it really is not and Patriarch Josef counselled us to stay away from these prayer forms), kneeling during Sunday liturgy and that's about it for the main items.

Alex

Hello Double,

"I would like to know if you experieced any theological conflicts caused by something in the Divine Liturgy and/or Church you attended"

Not directly. The parish where I attended was a parish that tries to be very similar to the Orthodox (really, very similar to some of the more conservative groups within Orthodoxy, in my view). The conflict I had was not with the liturgy or with the parish -- but it was rather with the blinkers you had to have on, which means it was "indirect". See below.

"Were there any Roman/Western/Papal dogmas that you felt were forced on you, and made you feel uncomfortable?"

The only two times I can remember are (1) one homily where the visiting priest (and a former Orthodox priest at that) made pains to point out that as Catholics we believe that there were twenty-something (I can never remember how many exactly) Ecumenical Councils, which I didn't believe then and don't believe now and (2) Melkite Bishop John's various writings about a number of issues, most notably on Purgatory and Indulgences.

"If there was nothing you could pinpoint in your regular worship experiences that was theologcally unacceptable, was it an inner conflict about remaining in Communion with Rome? Did you leave because inwardly you felt Rome expected you to accept things you did not believe, even though these issues did not present themselves openly in the Church setting?"

In a way that's true, but I would state it rather differently. I was not comfortable with saying "don't worry about the larger issues, just keep your head down because this is a fine parish and we're just like the Orthodox anyway". I believed then, and believe now, that Orthodoxy is true -- which is why I eventually became Orthodox. For me, remaining a Melkite would have been quite silly simply because the local Melkite parish is a good one, for the Church is about the Church, not about a particular parish or a particular priest. I felt that since I believed what the Orthodox do, it was not right, in fact it would have been, in my personal opinion, somewhat hypocritical, to remain in the Catholic Church while defying its own dogmatic beliefs. Others feel less strongly and are less conflicted about this -- each person has their own tolerance, I think, for this.

Brendan

Hello Double Eagle

I was received into the Orthodox Church (OCA) in November. Prior to this, I was a Melkite Catholic and before that a Roman Catholic.

To make a long story short...I really fell in love with my OCA parish and the Liturgy there. I had a hard time reconciling some Roman dogmas that an Eastern Catholic must accept (ie. papal infallibility) with Orthodox spirituality, history, etc. So, instead of spending my time worrying about these things, I jumped ship and became Orthodox. I love it...no regrets. I finally feel like I am at home.

Not all Eastern Catholics go through this, but some do and I was one of them.

Greg

Slava Jesu Kristu,

I, on the other hand, was born Roman Catholic, became Greek Orthodox in college and then returned as a Ruthenian Catholic. Papal infallibility was one of the reasons I returned. I too have no regrets.

Mir s Toboy
Dmitri

Thanks Double Eagle for asking these questions. I am a Ruthenian Catholic who "crossed the Bosphorus" for a year and a half and then returned to the Catholic Church. I believe that where the Eucharist is there is the Church. So I accept Coptic Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Assyrians, Armenians, etc. along with Catholics as part of the Church. Why did I return to the Catholic Church? Because I believe fully in the Petrine ministry of the Successor of St Peter as exercised in the Bishop of Rome.

Latinizations have been a problem in the Easten Catholic Churches. Many latinizations also exist in Orthodoxy. One can find the use of Western devotions in Western Rite Orthodoxy (which also suffers from some byzantinizations). The Rosary in itself is not evil (though I've known some former Catholics who would seem to think so).

As far as theology I would agree with Fr Lev Gillet who wrote in Orthodox Spirituality:


One "theological difference" mentioned was the Immaculate Conception. As has been noted elsewhere here recently there really isn't that much difference between Catholic and Orthodox undestanding of the Theotokos. The issue deals more with a difference of undestanding of original sin. From my perspective I'd rather have to deal with that issue (explaining the doctrine minus the Western view of original sin) than deal with theologians and laity who seem anxious to find sin in the Theotokos until the Annuciation.

A lot of the diffences boil down to the papacy. Some modern Orthodox apologetic would make it seem that this was all a late first millennium development and that the increasing claims of Rome in this regard were not fully understood by the East. That's a very selective and faulty reading of history IMO. One has to be careful not to project our undestanding today back as we read the historical texts but Rome claimed and was at times accorded much more than just a primacy of honor (for example, the Formula of Hormisdas).

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: DTBrown ]

What scares the daylights our of me is the fact that we can even formulate questions of this sort.

For me, it is the "pathway to God". And the pathway is relevant insofar as it brings individuals to God. I'm not sure that the 'theological controversies' or 'doctrinal disputes' are quite as relevant as many people would propose.

The reality exists in how these theological/doctrinal elements influence a person's prayer. While both Eastern and Western elements can surely lead an individual to God, I think the psychological impact is important to the INDIVIDUAL (not the Church!).

So, follow the pathway that you have chosen. And stick with it. DON'T get caught up in the theological differences; rather: examine how close you are coming to God. If you're making progress, keep on keepin' on. If you're not making progress, talk to your priest or spiritual director.

Blessings!

Hi Double_Eagle,
I could have remained in the Roman Catholic Church but I felt it to be compromised with secularization and "Protestantism". I felt no comfort. I could have remained in the Melkite Church where I did attend an established mission for a short time(unfortunately I see it dying and many are attending my Orthodox Church from time to time). After I did some homework and studying about Orthodoxy, I could not resist Orthodoxy's attractiveness. I had to conclude that Orthodoxy cannot ever be compromised nor compatible with Catholicism. With all due respect to my Byzantine Catholic friends here, to accept and believe so leads to relativism which is the realm of the Melkites or uniatism. Unfortunately, there are some Orthodox who are relativists that think this way as well. The essence of Orthodoxy is beyond compare or even the thought of compromising herself with the world.
I could still remember nine years ago when I "discovered" Orthodoxy for myself and my encounter with my current priest. I did not even realize that I was heading towards Orthodoxy and away from Catholicism. Actually, I did not leave the Catholic Church because I discovered her to be in the fullnes of the Orthodox Church. At first, I did not reject the Roman or Melkite Church in angry or harsh terms. Later on in my journey, once I discovered the truths about the Roman Church in relation to the Orthodox Churches then I was greatly disturbed. Rome is not to be trusted. Trust will happen when she returns to Orthodoxy if that ever happens. The Melkites will remain to be stuck in the middle of East & West by compromising the essential truths of Orthodoxy with Catholicism.

Slava Jesu Kristi

With all due respect, Rum Orthodox, I disagree with your assesment of the Melkites and unia. Although I agree that Eastern Catholics have had to strugle in their efforts, their willingness to remain faithful to both the Papacy and their customs has helped heal some of the alienation felt between Latins and Orthodox. It is the unification under one head that sets us apart.
Just my thoughts...
Dmitri

Dear Dr. John,

You are right, but you are a bit of a spoil sport!

We're having so much fun with seeing "how Latinized were/are you?" And "Who's fault was it?"

Any initiator of a thread who can get our brother, Rum Orthodox, to open up as he has is to be congratulated!!

Have a nice day and I hope your trip to Alaska was "cool" in more ways than one!

Alex

Slava Isusu Christu!

Hmm...I am wondering about something. What is this nonsense about the Byzantine Catholic Church not being Orthodox or being an Orthodox Church? We didn't give up anything with our union with Rome, we united with Rome because we wanted to retain our connection to the Holy See which is historical as per SS Cyril and Methodius and earlier; sure others had intentions, but if it was only for power and prestige, why would so many Greek Catholics die for unity with the Pope? I am so tired of these endless diatribes from so-called traditionalist Orthodox who glorify their Churches who are endlessly anathematizing each other and forming all kinds of vagante groups. What are the fruits of all of that? The fruits are clearly seen and demonstrated to be rotten; I mean look what those fanatics did to ROCOR's old retired Metropolitan in Canada. I mean give me a break. Having a visible Head uniting the Body of Christ is the answer to all of that chaos - as is seen in Catholic unity. We substantially demonstrate the Unity Christ prayed for. Each person is on their own journey and some come back to Rome and leave and come back etc. Some stay; some are Orthodox and become Catholics. The Orthodox Faithful who made their path to Rome at the Unias were prophetic in that they testified to the wholeness of the Catholic Church, who's Vicar is the Pope. Does anyone think that our union with Rome is worse then the non-canonical mess going on in world Orthodoxy? I seriously doubt it. Ask Father David Anderson who became Ukranian Catholic; ask the many Orthodox who have either become Byzantine or Latin. Many find Catholicism's unity comforting and a great source of consolation, including myself. And if I posted anti-Orthodox nonsense on a Orthodox forum I would be booted off in two seconds. So get a grip.

In Christ,

Robert

Robert,

Here on Byzcath you claim to be a Byzantine Catholic. On Orthodox Forum you claim to be OCA. Make up your mind and stop insulting Orthodox anyway. We Greek Catholics DO NOT want to hear that garbage.

You talk about Orthodox becoming Catholic, like Fr. David Anderson. Well I talked to that guy on the phone and he is real wonderful. But he obviously did not come to Catholicism for some "I believe the Pope is infallible vicar of Christ" belief. He was involved in the Ben Lomond fiasco and might have even been excommunicated by Metropolitan Phillip (I am not sure so someone please correct.) What about all the Greek and Roman Catholics who became Orthodox, like Bishop Nathaniel of the OCA, Bishop Peter of the OCA, etc. etc. Pushing forward "famous converts" just doesn't cut it because people convert for varied personal reasons.

anastasios

Dear Robert,

Yes, I have met (formally) Orthodox Christians who believe that the Pope would provide an excellent source of unity for Orthodoxy and would concur wholeheartedly with your other excellent points.

I too believe that so very little changed in our union with Rome that our religious patrimony was actually preserved, despite the annoyance of Latinization.

Our Orthodox friends are always welcome to post here and I do believe we are more open to them than Orthodox forums would be to us (am I wrong? I wouldn't be upset if I was!).

We need to respect each other's patrimony and not impute motives and bring forward agendas.

It's both the Orthodox and Catholic thing to do!

Alex

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear Anastasios:

My brother John Horwath, who is still OCA, posts on some of the Orthodox Forums. He uses my email account and computer. I don't mind him doing it and am not really concerned about it. I can see where the confusion comes from, but out here in internet land you could be Betty Boop and I would probably never know nor would I care.

As far as your post about what I said. I can see both points, but I was responding to Rum Orthodox. I mean are Greek Catholics going to have to continue to put up that nonsense forever, even on our own Forum? I am starting to see why it is such a strong issue in eastern Europe; the historical pain is continually being dug up and frankly today was not my day to be reading posts like that from Orthodox who rub their sophistries in our face.

In St. Josaphat,


Robert

Robert,

Thank you for clarifying the issue. This caused a stir on Orthodox Forum so you might want to tell your brother to set up his own ID since it is free and easy to do.

I agree that BC's should not take crap from Orthodox. But we can't then turn around and insult the Orthodox, either.

In St. Alexis Toth,

anastasios