www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Question for Ruthenians, Melkites, and those who left for Orthodoxy

JM --

We inherit the consequences when we are conceived. The consequences are, as God told Adam in the Garden, "death". What does that mean? It means estrangement from God, which is spiritual death (without communion with God we cannot spiritually be alive) and which, in turn, leads to physical corruption and death. The facts of spiritual death and the entailing physical corruption and death tend to lead one toward sin. The Theotokos was unique in this regard, that despite the fact of being born into the human condition she remained more open, more willing to accept, God's initiative than any other person of OT history -- so much so, in fact, that she perfectly cooperated with God's grace and did not commit actual sin at any time in her life.

Brendan

Brendan,

Thanks for your helpful response (I'm keeping a copy for future reference.) I would like to clarify that I don't believe the Orthodox understanding of "spiritual death" is intellectually or theologically inferior to the Catholic understanding of "original sin", nor do I believe that the Orthodox are less respectful of Mary than Catholics. Sometimes, though, when I discuss such matters with other Christians (Orthodox as well as Protestants) it seems like their tendency is to attack or belittle the Catholic position rather than explaining why they accept their church's teachings. Therefore, I think I tend to be a little more defensive initially than I ought to be. (Sorry if I offended anyone - that was not my intent.)

I still would like to have some discussion on "spiritual death" versus "original sin", particularly in regard to Holy Scripture, e.g., Romans 5:12. Would you mind discussing this issue in the future (I am really busy this week.)

Thanks again for your help.

"As a non-literalist in reading the Bible and a firm believer in evolution as more than a theory..."

Durak,

For the record, I hope you are not assuming I am a "literalist" with respect to "reading the Bible" because I noted that I was formerly an Evangelical Protestant. I do not believe in a literal interpretation of all Scripture. I do accept evolutionary theory as well as scientific facts provided by geology (I am a geologist) and biology with respect to the age of the earth and past (extinct) flora and fauna. I do appreciate your consideration of my understanding of Mary's state of grace.

No, I wasn't assuming anything about you personally. Romans 5:12 indeed is worthy of its own thread, no?
To review:
Augustine's interpretation of the Greek eph' ho ("in quo" - in whom - in the VL)obtained in the west, carrying the meaning that death comes to all from Adam, in whom all have sinned.
The East renders eph' ho as "because", thus ascribing to all persons an individual reseponsibility for death. (Death thus coming to all men because all sinned.)
Is this a correct stating of the issue?

Actually it's more like the interesting Latin translation of the phrase. The Latin translation of the Bible, as has been famously pointed out, translated this phrase to have a slightly different meaning than that of the Greek original (although this slight difference in meaning has had much larger consequences than anyone could have imagined at the time). If you study the Greek original, you can see where the Eastern tradition regarding the Original Sin comes from, while, at the same time, it is fairly easy to trace the Western understanding to this translation issue. It is highly, highly unfortunate that this difference in understanding was introduced by a, shall we say, "interesting" translation, and it should serve to underscore the need for accurate translations across the board.

jmaccabeus,

I too wish to apologize if I offended you or anyone else by being defensive.

brendan,

Thanks for participating on this thread. You did a better job of explaining things from an Eastern perspective than I could have.

I would like to pursue the meaning of "spiritual death" in the Eastern understanding of Original Sin. I am an amateur explorer in this area, coming from a Western origin. Perhaps it is presumptuous, but I find it hard to believe that Original Sin really deprived humans of the ability to share God's life until Jesus came. Several examples from Scripture seem to indicate otherwise. Moses was God's "intimate friend," whose contact with God made his face so radiant that he had to wear a veil in the presence of other Israelites. When Samuel the prophet grew up in Shiloh with Eli the priest, "the Lord was with him, not permitting any word of his to be without effect." When David was anointed by Samuel in the midst of his brothers, "the spirit of the Lord rushed upon David." Elijah was borne away from this world in a fiery chariot drawn by flaming horses, and he went to heaven in a whirlwind. Scripture does not mention his death. Going forward to the period we are reliving in Advent, the period just before the coming of the Lord, we find Zechariah and Elizabeth described as "righteous in the eyes of God," Elizabeth at the time of Mary's visit "filled with the Holy Spirit," Simeon both "righteous and devout" and having "the Holy Spirit . . . upon him," and, finally, Joseph described as "a righteous man." How could all this have been true, if Original Sin meant (and means) spiritual death, keeping humans separated from God until baptism incorporates them into the Body of Christ?

Double Eagle,

No problem (you didn't.) And to futher address your orginal inquiry, one issue that I do agree with the Orthodox on is that "the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. (Period.)" We don't include the filoque in the creed at the Byzantine Catholic church I attend.

Christos Rodilsja!

Plainsman,

A relationship with God and eternal life with God are two different things. The fact that people lived righteously or were favored by God in the Old Testament has no bearing on the fact that the consequences of Adam's sin rendered them incapable of entering heaven. Only Christ's Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection made it possible for man to truly live again and grant him access to life eternal. The Righteous of the Old Testament remained in Hades until Christ at his Resurrection freed them.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate