www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Orthodox view of immediate state after death

Alex, one of the best treatments on this subject I have run across is written from a scholarly perspective and was put out with the Dumbarton Oaks Publications from their department on Byzantine Studies. It's called �To Sleep, Perchance to Dream�: The Middle State. of Souls in Patristic and Byzantine Literature. A link to the paper is here [doaks.org] . It is in PDF format BTW.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

Thank you - it is EXCELLENT!

And it connects purification of the soul after death with the experience of Theosis - very good.

Alex

I will quote a few things here from the book "Saint Gregory Palamas as a Hagiorite", by Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Hierotheos. Although these quotes are not about hell, hades or purgatory, but about heaven:

"The whole text, (in the Bible), that describes the Transfiguration of Christ, but also all that preceded the event point out to us the path of deification, which is also the path to vision of the uncreated Light..."

"There is need for confession of Christ, certainty and confession the He is the one and only Redeemer. It is within the unshakeable faith in Christ that the prerequisites for the vision of God are created..."

"Basically it is a struggle for purity, which proceeds through patience, perseverance and hope in God..."

"...that the uncreated Light is the mystery of the age to come, and it is also the Kingdom of God."

"Man was made in the image and likeness of God. In the teaching of the holy Fathers the likeness is equivalent to the deification of man. Therefore the purpose of man is to attain deification."

When a person attains the vision of the uncreated Light in the Person of the Logos, he is deified. The vision of the uncreated Light is "union and deification" of a person, 'participation and deifying communion". During deification a person is united with God."

"There are many degrees of vision of the Light..."

"But here we wish to add that there is no ending to this perfection. In patrisitic theology standing still is regarded as *falling*."

"St. Gregory Palamas writes about this point: 'This vision of God has both a beginning and things after the beginning, varying in darkness and clarity; but there is no end at all, for its progress is infinite, like tht of the ravishment in revelation". So there is no end to this vision of God, but an endless progression."

"Vision of the uncreated Light has many degres. It depends on the person's spiritual condition and God's gift. The experience of God's purifying, enlightening and deifying energy operates in accordance with the degree of one's participation in divine Grace."
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Just a few quotes.

Zenovia

Thank you, Zenovia, and may God bless you for psoting those quotes.

-- John

I do beg to fiffer with you. Fr Seraphim Rose of Blessed Memory only put down in English the teachings of the Church Fathers. Where do you get that they are reactionaries and in the fringes of Orthodoxy? Was St John Maximovitch a reactionary and on the fringe of Orthodoxy? He was the source for most of Fr Seraphims work. http://www.orthodox.net/articles/life-after-death-john-maximovitch.html
Was St. John Damascene a reactionary and on the fringe of Orthodoxy? http://www.geocities.com/orthodoxmonastery/WRITINGS.html
You can go with the hundreds of years of interprative thought. I'll stick to the Church Fathers.

Dear Slavipodvizhnik,

Somehow or other, I was dissapointed with Father Seraphim Rose's view on the afterlife. I am waiting to read Metropolitan Hierotheos' book on 'Life After Death'. I find him an exceptionally blessed and enlightened 'theologian'.

As for the various interpretations througout the ages in the RCC of purgatory, heaven and hell as being a defined place rather than a state of being, one has to realize that to understand the 'undefinable' it must be presented in a way so that it can be comprehended by the listeners.

The West on a whole, is very structured, and that includes it's perception of the after life...thus the differences. I am sure the differences are minimal, and am positive they make no difference to God.

Zenovia

Try St. Ignaty Brianchaninov's "Homilies on Death" or "Cобрание Cочинений" Vol III.

Alexander

I have read Metropolitan Hierotheos' book and basically it reaffirms Fr Seraphim's writings, but in more "politically correct" terminology. One of the best easy language books that I've read is "Eternal Mysteries Beyond The Grave" Jordanville Press, 1968. Written by Archmandrite Panteleimon, who, incidently, was Carpatho-Russian, from near Presov, it puts things into a very simple, almost childlike perspective. It is the first book I give to people who ask about this subject.

Alexandr

I just read The Mountain of Silence: A search for Orthodox spirituality by Kyriacos Markides (GREAT spiritual reading, btw). In this book, the author befriends an Athonite monk, Fr. Maximos.

He and Fr. Maximos at one point are discussing prayers for the dead, and according to what Fr. Maximos says, the Orthodox don't believe that we must wait until the end of time to enter heaven or hell. He describes some of the holy elders on Mount Athos who have had visions of people who had passed on who were in hell.

Here's something interesting that I didn't know, btw... according to what Fr. Maximos says in this book, the Orthodox don't teach that people in hell are necessarily there for eternity. Their view of hell is actually more like purgatory... it CAN be permanent for those who won't repent, but it doesn't have to be. They believe that through the prayers of the living, the damned can be rescued from the state of hell. Fr. Maximos in fact places great importance on praying for the dead.

Perhaps hell isn't a permanent place for the damned until AFTER the final judgement? That it's really more of a purgatory, giving those souls the opportunity to repent and be saved before then?

I do know that some of the holy elders of the Orthodox Church have taught that it's possible for even Satan and his demons to turn back to God, but I don't know about that...

Good post, MzByz..thank you for it!

Yes, it is intrinsic to Orthodox belief, though without definitive proclamation, that our prayers can help some souls which are not in that forecourt of Heaven and yes, I do think of it like purgatory.

There are so many situations where those that have died are not as fully prepared, as let's say, an elderly person in a nursing home who has confessed all his/her sins, is too frail to really entertain much of the sins we are accosted by every day, and is awaiting their death without fear.

So many persons who die suddenly may have fallen from the faith, or have had unconfessed sins, and were not malicious monster human beings...and they deserve our petitions in love for the mercy of God to help purify their souls and bring them closer to Him....

'The Mountain of Silence' was indeed a great book. I hope that you enjoyed it.

I can't wait to get the second one which I believe you mentioned that you are now reading.

Is it just as good?

In Christ,
Alice

Thank you. Thank you, Zenovia, for saying that so well. The differences between Eastern and Western descriptions of this are, in my opinion, the outgrowth of two different attempts to describe what is indescribable in this life.

On a related note, I object when people say that eternal punishment is not eternal . . . in contrast to the explicit teaching of Jesus. (among others, Matthew chapter 25).

But, how does God purify the souls of people who are too good for hell but not pure enough for Heaven? I don't know. How *can* we know when the afterlife is in a mode of existence that is so different from ours? (How to explain the world to a baby in the womb?)

The afterlife --including the purification of souls-- is a mystery. I am content to leave the mystery to God. Here and now, there is work to be done. We are to live righteously. And that includes praying for the dead.

-- John

Hi Alice,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I honestly don't know much about Orthodox eschatology... just what I've read and heard from Orthodox.

And yes, the "sequel" Gifts of the Desert is just as good. It's actually a little deeper... Father Maximos has been elected Bishop of Cyprus, and it's much harder for Kyriacos to get to talk to him-- he has to find out Maximos' schedule ahead of time and "ambush" him, ha. And this time Kyriacos gets the benefit of talking with another spiritual giant, Bishop Kallistos Ware. :-)

Thanks MizByz!

I will try to get my hands on 'Gifts of the Desert' before Lent is over...

In Christ,
Alice

This is a nice discussion, but it is all sheer speculation. All I can say is that God will be just, and "mercy triumphs over judgment." James 2:13.

What does this mean? I don't know, and nobody else does either. God is just and merciful to all of His creatures. Why do His creatures continue to question or ponder about their future?

Give praise and thanks to God for creating you and giving you what you now have, knowing that He will take care of your future justly and mercifully.

God loves you, so you do not have to worry about anything else.

JP

Hi John,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Amen... I like the way you put that. It's interesting to speculate about the exact nature of heaven and hell and purgatory, but we really won't know till we get there, which will be soon enough. As you said, God's judgement is perfect, and we only have to trust in His mercy.