www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Please pray for the church in Ireland

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I guess this is what happens after 400 years of secular protestant oppression.

Dear Columcille,

Looking on the bright side, perhaps with Roman Catholicism effectively on the wane in Ireland, the people might try a Celtic Orthodoxy?

Erin go bragh!

Alex

Irish --

This really has nothing to do with 400 years of Protestant oppression -- it has to do with 20 or so years of globalization and western secular materialism. As Ireland has become more prosperous a la the globalized materialist model, it has become less religious -- it's a symptom of the globalized secular culture.

Brendan

This is also true, but I believe the oppression is also a factor. Either, say a prayer for Ireland.

From what I have read, church attendance is on the way up in Ireland. So, too are vocations.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/today/may14/News/priest.shtml

When I find the link about church attendance in Ireland, I will return and post it.

Now, there's a lot of countries where the Church sems to be on the decline and on the way out. This is especially so in Brazil, where the double-team of evangelicalsim and secularism have led to the most Catholic (nominally) nation on Earth having a less than 20% attendance rate at Sunday Mass.
http://www.miami.com/herald/content/news/world/digdocs/016879.htm

However, there has been an increase in interest in vocations and Mass attendance in Cuba. Never count out the Catholic Church. We've been around for a long time, faced destruction and despair, and come back. Christ promised us as much.

Fighting Irish, it seems you are leaving. Sorry I missed you. I hope to send this by the E-mail as well.

400 years is not the half of it, and the Protestant Oppression is not the whole of it.

Reflect back on Adrian,IV, who sold out the Irish Church to his English countryman, Henry,II. Pope Adrain,IV, was an Englishman, and did what was expected of him. By Papal Bull he instructed Heny,II, to invade Ireland and "rescue" The Church, and to subjegate the barbarous people in the process..

Without going into the history and merits of our early Church, I will only say that present and past hierarchs and scholars of the Russian Churches have pointed out the Orthodoxy of the early Irish Church.

You can be confident that they are also aware of the role of the Papacy in the destruction of that church.

How about "Fighting Polish" or "Fighting Italians"? I'm an Italian-American. I am also
Catholic and "catholic". From what I see
the Church is under attack in a lot of places
not just Ireland...Not just Protestantism...
I think globalization,and consumerism...
are the main factors...Do you know in Italy
seat of Rome...there is a huge interest in sorcery and the occult? In Russia Orthodox bretheren struggle with restless youth,
and nondenominational missionaries with
their Western biases...I pray for Ireland,
but also, Italy, Germany, France,Russia,
Greece, the Sudan,evereywhere...We are under attack...More martyrs for the Faith this century than any other, and I include the thousands of Orthodox Russians slaughtered by Stalin and the Communists...
Secco

Dear Scythian,

Can't really argue with what you've said here. From what I've read, I agree with all that you say.

Could you give me any references to what the Russian Orthodox have written about this topic though? I'd be really interested in learning more about this.

In Christ,
Mike (poor sinner)

Dear Mike and Scythian,

There is a wonderful (Independent) Celtic Orthodox website that has all sorts of information, including an English translation of the Celtic Breviary and Liturgy: Celticchristianity.org

This group has revived Irish monasticism under the Celi De order and recites all 150 Psalms daily as they did.

Ultimately, the Irish Celtic Church is the original Church of the Celtic peoples, including the Columban Church of Scotland. This Church was Orthodox in every way and was heavily influenced by the Coptic tradition.

For example, the Celtic Church was the only western Church that did prostrations. They prayed the Psalms as the Copts did, in groups of 12. There are seven Coptic Saints buried in Ireland and are mentioned in the Irish litany of all saints.

St Olha the Great of Kyiv (Olga of Kiev)also invited Celtic missionaries to visit her and share their faith with her.

To this day, Celtic crosses are popular in the East Slavic Churches.

The Mozarabic Rite has been approved by the VAtican for all of Spain.

I believe that the Celtic peoples should return to their Celtic Church and RIte as well.

In addition to the seven Celtic Nations (including "Galizia" in Spain), there are the Walloons of Belgium ("Wal" means "wild" and is an historic name for the Celts) and the people of Wallachia in Roumania (which means I am of Celtic background too!!).

"Walnuts" are also a Celtic nut developed by them and they were the ones who built Sevastopil in Crimea. Their legacy dots the European continent.

Erin go bragh!

Alex

Alex,

Interesting website. However, I must say that I believe Ireland needs to remain Catholic. Obviously, I believe the Catholic Church to be THE True Church.

I never heard of the Celtic Orthodox. You learn something new everyday

Columcille

Dear Columcille,

I would never suggest otherwise!

I am only suggesting that Ireland, Scotland et al. return to its Celtic Catholic Rite!

It is very similar to the Tridentine Rite, only there are longer lists of Saints . . .

The Celts always commemorated the Pope etc.

They ran into problems at the Council of Whitby, as you know, for some differences in practice that put them at odds with the rest of the Church.

One of these was the different Easter date calculation that they had. This was based on that of Ephesus where St John the Divine had preached. It resulted in slightly different dates for Easter that drove the Romans "bananas."

The Celtic Fathers who refused to adopt the Roman practice moved into the Hebrides and stayed there until their deaths . . .

There are today some Protestant parishes in Britain who follow this calculation of Easter. As one Welsh parson said, "We should have celebrated Ash Wednesday yesterday, but since we FORGOT we'll do it this Monday."

There is a very independent Celtic Orthodox group on the west coast who also follows the old Celtic Easter calculation.

Another Celtic practice that was condemned at Whitby was the Celtic tonsure of "Simon Magus." This tonsure cut the hair over the front of the crown, rather than on top in accordance with Roman practice.

There were other minor Celtic practices that were debated, such as the reception of Easter Communion not on Easter Sunday, but on St Thomas' Sunday called by the Celts "Little Easter."

St Duncan, Abbot of Iona defended this practice before ST Margaret Queen of Scotland saying that it isn't appropriate to receive Communion so soon after mourning the Crucifixion.

The Lorrha-Stowe Liturgy itself came under suspicion by the Roman Church in Britain since it had a number of "circular" motions that followed the sun. The sun was worshipped by the Druids, as you know, so some of the sun cult may have spilled over, as it did in other parts of the Church.

Also, St Ninian of Galloway and St Columcille of Iona worshipped within stone circles and adopted a number of other Druidic practices, musical instruments and the like. St Kenneth was himself a converted Druid as were others in St Columcille's group.

The Celtic missionaries were famous for "saining" or "blessing" practices which they adopted. They thus tied Christianity with the culture of the people and brought it very close to their hearts.

One of my favourite Celtic traditions, practiced also in the Sarum, Hereford and other Rites, is the blessing of the right hand during Baptism to empower and commission it to make the Sign of the Cross.

The independent Celtic Orthodox Church I mentioned is Western Rite and they wear the green scapular of St Patrick.

You too are of the Celtic Church and Rite, Friend!

Alex

I wanted to amend my initial response.
I wasn't trying to be "funny". I'm certain
the Church in Ireland needs prayer,I also think Prayer is needed for Italy, Poland,
the Sudan, Brazil,etc...I'm glad you have
gained a greater appreciation for the Roman Church thanks to this site. I like what I read from others here about the many voices
I hear from a variety of backgrounds,for me
thats great. I think we are all part of Christ's Body, with much to teach and learn from each other, East and West. For now,
I'm Roman too,but it truly amazes me how many wonderful brothers, sisters I've met
Serbian Orthodox,Russian Orthodox, Byzantine Catholic,....Orthodox Catholic...
They make me feel "whole"...I'm reading
the Eastern Fathers, I think they are bring me a dimension to my Spirituality, I've missed...The water is fine...
Secco

Dear Secco,

What a blessing it is for me personally to read your inspiring words at Pentecost!

Alex

Alex, I could say the same for all of you.
This is a real peaceful place,where I know
I can learn a lot... Christ is Risen!
Secco