www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Please pray for the church in Ireland

JMJ

Columcille:

I personally beleive it is important to pray for the church in Ireland. Some interesting points. Did you know that private confessions as well as confessionals started as a celtic tradition? It is a fact that Monasticism, as it is known in the west, is also of celtic origen. Also, the Tridentine Rite of the Mass was heavily influenced by the Celts. It was also the celts who saved Christendom from the pagans after the fall of the Roman Empire.

Orthodox Catholic:

Very interesting information about Celtic Orthodoxy. Now, if only they were in communion with Rome!

Secco:

There is indeed a rich treasure that is found in the Eastern Rites. If you do not already, I suggest that you attend a Tridentine Latin Mass. Many of the treasures of the faith are found in this rite. The church does indeed need prayer all over the world. In your list of martyrs, you should also count the millions of Catholics killed by the Chinese Goverment. I count Cardinal Kung in this group since he suffered spiritual martyrdom at the hands of the Chinese. Does anyone know if his cause for cannoniztin has been opened?

Dominus Vobiscum,
Joe

Dear Joe,

Well, they were a long time ago before Rome suppressed their Rite!

I have spoken with Irish Tridentine Priests up here who are very open to using the Lorrha-Stowe Liturgy.

The Celtic Rite is so beautiful and so ascetical that I think it is needed in these times.

Alex

JMJ

In a culture that seems to have a fascination with so called celtic religions (newagers and cultists) maybe they would keep more of our youth in the church. Maybe someone should start a petition to have it recognized. The Vatican does, contrary to popular beleif, listen very closely to the vox popli (popular voice, or voice of the people). If someone did start such a petition, I would be most willing to sign it.

Joe

JMJ

I agree that they are neccessary in this time. I think that the can help keep alot of people, especially our yuth, from falling into the trap of the so called celts, cultists and newagers. Maybe someone should start a petition to have the Vatican Recognize it. I for one would be willing to sign it.

Joe

JMJ

Are there any other websites about the Celtic Rite?

Joe

PS: sorry for the extra post just a few minutes ago.

I don't know if I should say anything and provoke a slew of "burst bubble" replies, but I think a few things should be pointed out about the greatness of early Irish Christinity: Although the Irish were extremely important it is a simply not true that they established private confession (we know that Aphrates, the Persian Sage as he was called, already wrote about private confession a few centuries before the Irish became known for it); Monasticism in the West is really the child of St. Benedict, a Roman, or at least an Italian, more than the Irish. The Irish did influence monasticism all over Europe, but western monasticism is not really their doing. I have no idea how the Irish influenced the Tridentine Rite as was said by Johanam. I'm not saying it did not happen to some extent, but realistically one has to ask how could the Irish have much influence over a liturgy shaped originally in Italy? Yes, there was Irish-Anglo-Saxon influence on the Tri. Rite as it developed in Carolingian France, but there was probably more influence in the reverse. Take, for instance, Jungmann's THE MASS OF THE ROMAN RITE, volume 1, page 45 where he writes that, "The term Celtic is applied to the Latin liturgies in use among the Celtic peoples of northwestern Europe. especially the Iris and Scots...In the few documents that survive, the liturgy reveals the character of this wandering monasticim. So far as the Mass is concerned, it is a liturgy generally composed of foreign elements: Gallican [French], Roman, Mozarabic and (not least) oriental patterns were borrowed and in some way or other woven together, so that it is only in a broad sense that we can speak of a distinct liturgy." And, although the Irish did do a great deal to protect Christian learning after the collapse of the Roman Empire in the West it wasn't from pagans, but from Arians -- if I remember correctly all of the Germanic tribes were Arians, at least the major ones, except the Franks who really were pagans. The Arians were much harder to convert than the pagans!

And one more thing...

If you really want to blame a specific thing for current Church or faith problems in Ireland it has to be the Protestant Revolution. Materialism is nothing but the rationalist product of Calvinism. It is what the Revolution gave us. It is not something different. It's all in the same mix.

Did you know that the Byzantine parish in Dublin is now doing the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in Irish!

Saints Preserve Us! (pronounced with an Irish Brogue)

I think it is high time for another thread!

Thanks be to God,Johan! I will someday
participate in a Tridentine Mass...but
I am very serious about my Eastern journey for many reasons that a Tridentine Mass
will not suffice. I've no intention of
straying too far...I read in your post some
cautionary tone about where I am headed.
Fear not. I am certain that God is with me,
and with His Hand, and the Fathers...I won't
go wrong. A Spiritual Father, Francis of Assisi wouldn't allow it either.
Secco